"Gaza Island"

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

The first and second waves of immigrants (primarily Russian Jews who arrived in the 18th and 19th Centuries) were under the Ottomans who welcomed them as did the locals.

But the ottomans apparently had a law that made it illegal for Jews to purchase land in Palestine.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

But the ottomans apparently had a law that made it illegal for Jews to purchase land in Palestine.

That was because the Ottomans had problems with the Russians and other Imperial European powers and the vast majority of the immigrants to the area were Russian Jews.

[Golden Gate 530]

But the ottomans apparently had a law that made it illegal for Jews to purchase land in Palestine.

Here's an interesting site about what happened in the 1930s: My link

[ready4ONE 5,400]

But you can always scream Manifest Destiny 2,000+ years after the fact? We are talking about an event that happened less than 100 years ago, where well-documented records still exist, your comparison is not valid. Now, if you are going to argue that we can work out something along the lines of reconciliation and redress, then I'm down with that.

Europeans haven't been in North America for 2000 years and some Indian Treaties were signed in the late 1800's so the comparison is not entirely invalid.

Reconciliation between the Israeli's and Palestinians needs to be a two way street. Israel is not solely to blame for Palestine not yet getting off the snide and becoming an actual functioning nation.

Back to the OP this just in:

Israel sea blockade of Gaza legal, but attack on Mavi Marmara was 'excessive'

By Mark Weiss in Jerusalem

Last Updated: 10:06PM BST 07/07/2011

Israel's sea blockade of Gaza is legal but its attack on a Turkish ship trying to break it last year used "excessive force", according to leaks of a United Nations report.

Nine Turkish activists died in May last year when the Israeli navy stormed the MV Mavi Marmara, which was leading a flotilla of vessels to Gaza.

According to findings of a UN Commission headed by Geoffrey Palmer, a former New Zealand prime minister, leaked in Turkey and Israel, the military operation was "premature" and the deaths "unacceptable".

However, in what Israel is already hailing as a vindication, Israel is only asked to express regret and not to apologise. Turkey is also criticised for not doing enough to stop the flotilla and for its links with IHH, an Islamist group which helped organise it.

The report also concludes that the blockade of Gaza is not illegal and that Israel is justified in stopping vessels even outside its territorial waters.

When he set up the commission of inquiry last year, Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, expressed the hope that the panel would help to prevent similar incidents in the future, and would also contribute to improving the strained relations between Israel and Turkey.

Turkey withdrew its ambassador to Israel following the flotilla incident, but there are clear indications that with the region in turmoil, both sides are now keen to get relations back on track. Israel has lost a key ally in the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, while Turkey's attempts to build relationships with Syria and Libya have collapsed.

Last month Ankara withdrew support for this year's Gaza flotilla, prompting the Mavi Marmara, the flagship vessel, to pull out. A few days later Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sent his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan a letter congratulating him on his election victory.

The UN findings were due to be released on Thursday, but may be delayed after last ditch efforts by senior Israeli and Turkish officials to reach an acceptable compromise failed to achieve a breakthrough.

The main sticking point remains Israel's refusal to apologise over the death of the 9 activists.

Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's hardline foreign minister, said there was no reason for Israel to apologise.

"An apology is not a compromise – it is a humiliation and an abandonment of IDF soldiers," he said. "We regret the loss of life of people from any nation. There are things we can discuss with Turkey and things we cannot."

Israel has agreed to pay compensation to the families of the victims, indirectly via a Turkish government fund, and to issue a statement expressing the regret over the loss of life. Israel also seeks guarantees from Ankara that there will be no further claims against the soldiers who participated in the naval raid.

Speaking during a visit to Bucharest on Wednesday Prime Minister Netanyahu said efforts to mend ties with Turkey were continuing. "We are not the ones who led to a deterioration of the ties. We are interested and open to finding ways to improve the relations," he said.

From today's issue of The Telegraph sorry no direct link.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Here's an interesting site about what happened in the 1930s: My link

This was under the British mandate so why am I not surprised. The best way to solve the Jewish problem (i.e. our anti-Semitic prejudices) is to dump them on someone else. It was a bit like sending the Indians to rule over Africans but much worse.

Edited July 14, 2011 by IR5FORMUMSIE

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The first and second waves of immigrants (primarily Russian Jews who arrived in the 18th and 19th Centuries) were under the Ottomans who welcomed them as friends as did the locals.

People forget that Europe expunged the Jews ending in 1492. The Muslims gave them refuge when the rest of the modern world was hunting them down and burning them at the stake. Even Europe's support for the State of Israel is a thin veil that hides their prejudice against non-Europeans.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Do you have any evidence that Israel is swinging "further and further away" from democracy, other than the misguided Boycott Law which will probably be overturned?

And since you put "only democracy" in quotes, what other real democracies are there?

We use quote marks to indicate a quote. As if you didn't know “the only democracy” line is like #11 on the Top 100 Hasbara Talking Points - you can find everyone from Israeli presidents to ambassadors to IDF spokespeople rattling it off. Here is Nutty’s performance:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2011/YouTube_World_View_interview_PM_Netanyahu_30-Mar-2011

Now for the continuing slide away from democracy...

* The "Nakba Law" (another gem from Yisrael Beiteinu, the far-right wing party led by former nightclub bouncer Avigdor Lieberman) was passed earlier this year - it forbids public commemoration of the expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians in 1948.

* The "Admissions Committees Law" passed this year (also from Yisrael Beiteinu) allows small towns in the Galilee and Negev to establish "admission committees" to decide who to allow to live there. If a potential resident is deemed not to fit with the "socio-cultural" tenor of the town - they may be rejected. This law effectively allows towns to self-segregate - and it is directly targeted at the two areas where much of the Arab Israeli population is concentrated: the Galilee and the Negev. It's part of a systematic plan to make it more and more and more difficult for the Israeli Arab population to find anywhere to live in Israel except their ghettos, many of course which are not recognized by the Israeli government, receive little or no government services such as electricity, water, schools, etc., and may be bulldozed at any time.

* And currently there are two more bills being pushed by Yisrael Beiteinu along with Netanyahu’s Likud which are intended to further curtail dissent and debate in Israel. The first one would establish a “commission of inquiry“ to investigate left-leaning human rights groups like B’Tselem. (Remember Lieberman is the guy who called human rights groups “collaborators with terror”...)

* The second proposal (presented by Likud) would give a special Knesset committee the power to veto appointments to the Israeli Supreme Court - which some are calling not only an attempt to direct the Court’s opinion, but also to intimidate the current judges who will, no doubt, soon be ruling on the legality of the Boycott Law.

During its last days, Apartheid South Africa also escalated repressive measures.

Even Jeffrey Goldberg is saying it...

Maybe It's Time for American Jews to Boycott Netanyahu

Notice he put “only democracy” in quotes, too

My time is short today... back later with comments about the Ottoman laws and much much more !

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

People forget that Europe expunged the Jews ending in 1492. The Muslims gave them refuge when the rest of the modern world was hunting them down and burning them at the stake. Even Europe's support for the State of Israel is a thin veil that hides their prejudice against non-Europeans.

Absolutely. They just want all the Jews OUT by whatever means they can think of.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Europeans haven't been in North America for 2000 years and some Indian Treaties were signed in the late 1800's so the comparison is not entirely invalid.

Reconciliation between the Israeli's and Palestinians needs to be a two way street. Israel is not solely to blame for Palestine not yet getting off the snide and becoming an actual functioning nation.

So who has been in Palestine for millenia, long before the Ashkenazim showed up with their ideas? Sephardim? Sure, some. Who else? Native Treaties have been broken how many times? Ariel Sharon in the 1970s set out a plan to emulate the reservation concept that he saw in North America and told the U.S. envoy (who was Jewish) it during a tour. The envoy was not happy.

Israel keeps bombing infrastructure and preventing a contiguous state of Palestine from forming, the blockades prevent the movement of industrial machinery that are built to manufacture goods that Israeli companies have contracted for. It doesn't make sense. How can a country run if it can't control its own borders?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

So who has been in Palestine for millenia, long before the Ashkenazim showed up with their ideas? Sephardim? Sure, some. Who else? Native Treaties have been broken how many times? Ariel Sharon in the 1970s set out a plan to emulate the reservation concept that he saw in North America and told the U.S. envoy (who was Jewish) it during a tour. The envoy was not happy.

Israel keeps bombing infrastructure and preventing a contiguous state of Palestine from forming, the blockades prevent the movement of industrial machinery that are built to manufacture goods that Israeli companies have contracted for. It doesn't make sense. How can a country run if it can't control its own borders?

Israel hasn't defined its own borders so it can continue to encroach on refugee lands.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Today in Jerusalem...

Thousands of Israelis and Arabs march in Jerusalem to support Palestinian independence

Several MKs participate in the 'March for Independence,' the first such Jewish-Arab event in 20 years.

By Nir Hasson

Approximately 2,000 Palestinians and Israelis took part in the "March for Independence" Friday, calling for the recognition of a Palestinian state.

Although the organizers of the march issued a statement saying the march was carried out peacefully, police had to intervene and separate right-wing and left-wing activists.

The event was coordinated with the police, and organizers had pledged to prevent any violence from breaking out, despite the expected right-wing counter-protests.

Participants in the march held signs quoting South African leader and anti-apartheid activist Nelson Mandela saying "only free men can negotiate", while others bore slogans calling for support of Palestinian independence.

Several MKs participated in the march, including Zehava Galon of Meretz and Dov Hanin of Hadash. Other prominent public figures took part as well, such as former Speaker of the Knesset Avraham Burg and former Attorney General Michael Ben Yair.

The march took a symbolic route, following the green line that used to divide East and West Jerusalem before the Six Day War in 1967. It began at Jaffa Gate and ended at the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood, the opposite route taken by right-wing activists during Jerusalem Day last month.

Avner Inbar, Solidarity movement spokesman, said that the declaration of independence in September is "an act of people who crave freedom." He added that "Palestinian independence is not only the natural right of the Palestinian people. It is the only solution that can prevent another wave of violence between Israelis and Palestinians. This march proves that a joint, Jewish-Arab struggle is the way to end the occupation."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/thousands-of-israelis-and-arabs-march-in-jerusalem-to-support-palestinian-independence-1.373462

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

One state or two state, it doesn't matter. PEACE is the only game in town.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4nF-BTclRM

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Henry Siegman agrees that Israel has never wanted "peace;" it wants "land":

Former American Jewish Congress Chief: U.S. Should Get Out Of The Way Of Palestinian U.N. Bid

The reason the United States so far has not only been unable to make any progress and bring the situation forward, but so far has been the main player preventing any progress, is because the United States has taken the position that the only way to make any progress in this situation is a renewal of the peace process, getting [israeli Prime Minister] Benjamin Netanyahu and [Palestinian Authority President] Mahmoud Abbas to talk to each other. If there is anything to be learned from years of disappointment and failure, it’s that the so-called peace process is simply a vehicle for Israel to pretend there is some potential for progress even as on the ground they are making it impossible because of their settlement project. There is a basic dishonesty here. The United States, instead of saying, “This is a fraud,” says instead Israel wants to see a two-state solution, and thus provides a cover for Israel to expand its settlements on the ground and make an outcome absolutely impossible. So it’s in that sense that I’m saying the U.S. is the major obstacle. Because for years the assumption has been that the United States is uniquely in a position to bring about an agreement because of its leverage with Israel. But it turns out the U.S. is captive to Israel’s plans.

...

The reality is that Israeli governments — even before Bibi Netanyahu — have opted for territory over peace. From the very beginning in 1967, Israel’s goal has been to prevent a border being drawn between them and the West Bank. The goal has been to retain permanent control over the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli governments — and especially the current one — believe that peace is not nearly as important as territory.

...

I think the Palestinians have a shot at getting the Gen Assembly to affirm their right to statehood based on the ’67 borders subject to land swaps. They do have a shot at it even if they do not get as much support from Europeans as they are hoping to get. The question is: Is it worth the effort? On the ground, very little will change, certainly in the short term, because Israel is not about to let go of its control of the West Bank. Nevertheless, it will be an important development. Because the goal of Israeli governments has always been to retain control of the West Bank, and to do it in a way where they can blame Palestinians for an absence of a peace accord, they never wanted to set a border. When Obama recently, a year ago, in a meeting with Netanyahu, asked him to tell him in the privacy of the White House where he wants the border to be, he refused. Netanyahu absolutely refused to indicate to Israel’s most important partner where he wanted the border to be. The reason he wouldn’t say is because he can’t, for he cannot concede that his goal is that there be no border at all.

Nothing will change on the ground as a result of the vote at the U.N. The U.N. can’t force Israel to do anything, and the U.S. certainly won’t do so, so why are the Israelis so upset about this? Why are they running around the world asking people to vote against this? Because it’s a vote that affirms a border. That, too, is why Netanyahu went wild when President Obama called for a border based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps. He called Obama before his speech and tried to convince him not to say it. That’s unprecedented.

The reason Palestinians are going ahead with this even though they know nothing will change on the ground in the short term is that Israel will be put on notice that the international community endorses a border on the 67 lines with territory swaps.

...

Ultimately the focus has to be not on diplomatic gamesmanship, the focus has to be on what changes the cost benefit calculation of Israeli governments. As long as they pursue a goal of controlling the West Bank and there is no price to be paid for it, any peace process — no matter how cleverly formulated — will fail because Israel will not give up that territory. So you have to change the cost-benefit calculation. There has to be a cost to Israel for pursuing that goal. Only when the cost gets serious enough will Israel make a deal and set that border.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Henry Siegman agrees that Israel has never wanted "peace;" it wants "land":

Forgot the link:

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/15/270667/siegman-palestinian-statehood-un/#more-270667