"Gaza Island"

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Well nothing you have posted really changes the fact that the initial conflict was a civil war with the typical refugees, but I will say that since the 67 war I can see your view on colonialism and ethnic cleansing which Israel does seem to be supporting...because its no longer about the population's safety.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Sousuke

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Your definitions don't apply here.

First colonialism requires two territories with one territory remaining the sovereign of another. Where is the second territory? You can't say "Europe" is the sovereign of Israel. Are you referring to the current situation in the west bank? Ok in that way I can see that as colonialism, but not the initial conflict.

Historically, it was called a civil war. When the British Mandate ended there was a power vaccuum in which both communities fought an open war. By the end, yes 700,000 Arabs were displaced and about 1 million Jews were displaced from surrounding arab countries. However, because the violence was mutual its hard to fit what occurred between 1947-1967 as ethnic cleansing.

Maybe I'm looking more at the past and you the present....and thats why we aren't connecting.

So I guess there was no colonialism in the New World either, since none of those territories were considered "sovereign" by the European invaders. And that little squabble between the Zulus and the British Empire was actually a "civil war," too.

We already went over the displacement of Jews from Arab countries in this thread (see Post #180) - it's not quite what you have portrayed here.

Anyway, Israeli historians have already confirmed that ethnic cleansing occurred, and not by accident. Benny Morris says it was not only justified; he actually says Ben Gurion didn't go far enough:

"...there are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."

...

"If he was already engaged in the expulsion, maybe he should have done a completed job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleaned the whole country - the whole land of Israel, as far as the Jordan valley. It may yet turn out this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial expulsion - he would have stabilized the state of Israel for generations."

- Benny Morris, interviewed in Ha'aretz, 2004

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

So I guess there was no colonialism in the New World either, since none of those territories were considered "sovereign" by the European invaders.

There was colonialism in the new world. You had a nation capture territory in the new world and claim it as a colony in the old. In the case of Palestine and the 1948 war there was only one territory. The last colonial power there was the British. There wasn't a home base country from which either party fought. Now once Israel was established, I do understand the colonial analogy with regards to the West Bank.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Sousuke

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

There was colonialism in the new world. You had a nation capture territory in the new world and claim it as a colony in the old. In the case of Palestine and the 1948 war there was only one territory. The last colonial power there was the British. There wasn't a home base country from which either party fought. Now once Israel was established, I do understand the colonial analogy with regards to the West Bank.

By the way, I would add the resettlement policies of East Jerusalem into this as well.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

By the way, I would add the resettlement policies of East Jerusalem into this as well.

As long as we admit it is wrong and needs to stop, then we have a reason to look for a solution. How we got here is not as important as to where we need to go.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

There was colonialism in the new world. You had a nation capture territory in the new world and claim it as a colony in the old. In the case of Palestine and the 1948 war there was only one territory. The last colonial power there was the British. There wasn't a home base country from which either party fought. Now once Israel was established, I do understand the colonial analogy with regards to the West Bank.

I don't know why you keep trying to argue that the Zionist project to establish a Jewish state in Palestine cannot be considered "colonialism" until after 1967. The Zionists themselves (as well as the British and other European powers) used that very term to refer to their activities in Palestine - not only pre-1967, but long before 1948:

* The Jewish Colonization Commission (established 1891) - this funded colonies in Palestine as well as other countries

* The Jewish Colonial Trust (among the very first institutions created by the World Zionist Congress, established in 1898 at the Second Jewish Congress in Basle.)

"Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population --an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy."

If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else - or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but impossible!... Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important... to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through with playing at colonizing."

-Ze'ev Jabotinsky, leader of Revisionist Zionism (the pre-curser to the Likud party,) The Iron Wall, 1923

* Palestine Jewish Colonization Association (established 1923 to concentrate on Palestine)

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4282496

* Agricultural Colonies in Palestine

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=907&letter=A

There are many many more historical references to it.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

As long as we admit it is wrong and needs to stop, then we have a reason to look for a solution. How we got here is not as important as to where we need to go.

Exactly It's important to understand history, but the future is what we can change. And of course this is the reasoning behind the BDS movement - that the current situation is wrong and needs to stop now. It is a call for global boycott, divestment and sanctions until Israel complies with international law - including ending its occupation of Palestinian and other Arab lands and removing its illegal settlements.

[mawilson 2,133]

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Those are not all Arab countries.

[mawilson 2,133]

Those are not all Arab countries.

Be that as it may, the Palestinian "plight" is their casus belli.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Those are not all Arab countries.

And notice his little "yellow" Israel does not even indicate the West Bank or Gaza (hey - isn't that the same thing Zionists are always accusing Palestinians of doing on their maps ?!)

But at least he's admitting there's an occupation and it's unjust - that's progress !

[mawilson 2,133]

But at least he's admitting there's an occupation and it's unjust - that's progress !

You should check your sarcasm meter.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Be that as it may, the Palestinian "plight" is their casus belli.

Now why don't you make a map of all the countries in the world that already recognize a Palestinian state ?

OMG the world is turning green! And about to get greener come this September....

[mawilson 2,133]

Now why don't you make a map of all the countries in the world that already recognize a Palestinian state ?

Not a single country that matters.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You should check your sarcasm meter.

:whisper: I was being sarcastic.