"Gaza Island"

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Africa is going to get mighty crowded if everybody moves back to where their ancestors came from.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Africa is going to get mighty crowded if everybody moves back to where their ancestors came from.

Hey, it's been established that the "right" to return to one's "historic homeland" is reserved for only one special group on earth, so Africa is safe for now.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I think it's been a good discussion (this thread.) Of it gets a little harsh at times that is easy to understand, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is and always has been a decisive subject. WOM's opinion Zionism is crazy has some merit, especially from her point of view as a Palestinian and should be acceptable as her POV.

Edited June 24, 2011 by ready4ONE

[Sofiyya 1,687]

True. Zionists can't seriously expect that whining about their opposition is a legitimate way to squash them. Terrorists should expect opposition.

I think it's been a good discussion (this thread.) Of it gets a little harsh at times that is easy to understand, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is and always has been a decisive subject. WOM's opinion Zionism is crazy has some merit, especially from her point of view as a Palestinian and should be acceptable as her POV.

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Gays are persecuted worldwide. Should they, too, have a country where they can assert self-determination?

oh what would they call it?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

oh what would they call it?

Eric

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

A moment before boarding the next flotilla

I’d rather use my influence and power, in concert with other members of American civil society, to actively and nonviolently resist policies I consider abominable.

By Gabriel Matthew Schivone

You might wonder what would motivate a Jewish American college student to participate in what may be the most celebrated - and controversial - sea voyage of the 21st century, one that aims to nonviolently challenge U.S.-supported Israeli military power in the occupied territories. I simply cannot sit idle while my country aids and abets Israel's siege, occupation and repression of the Palestinians. I would rather use my personal influence and power, in concert with other members of American civil society, to actively and nonviolently resist policies that I consider abominable. So, next week, I and more than 30 other American civilians will be sailing on the U.S. ship the Audacity of Hope, to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

I am one of a growing number of young American Jews who are determined to shake off an assumed - and largely imposed - association with Israel. Prominent advocacy organizations, such as the American Jewish Committee, which proudly proclaim their unconditional support of Israel, for several years have been declaring their "serious concern" over the increasing "distancing" of young American Jews from the state.

But what Israel apologists like the AJC view as a crisis, I see as a positive development for American Jews, who, like other parts of U.S. society, are shifting from blind support for Israel to a more critical position that reflects opposition to our country's backing for Israel's policies.

If Israel's apologists in the U.S. are alarmed by a falling off in unconditional support for Israel, they should be even more concerned that such a diverse range of youth - especially young Jews - are joining up with constituencies that actively organize against America's role in the occupation. Today, the so-called crisis has expanded from the coasts to such places as Arizona. It probably was just a matter of time before a Jewish anti-occupation group emerged in my home state, given that a fairly substantial portion of the Students for Justice in Palestine chapter on the University of Arizona campus (in Tucson ) were Jewish. For our part, we Jews launched an initial chapter of Jewish Voice for Peace at the UA campus in spring 2010 - one of nearly 30 JVP chapters throughout the country, which has a mailing list of 100,000 - and thereafter branches in the general Tucson and Northern Arizona communities, and at Arizona State University, in Phoenix.

Through JVP, I discovered there were a great many others like me, who were experiencing profound internal conflicts regarding Israel. They included people who had been intimidated from expressing public criticism of Israel, and others who were afraid to speak out in defense of Palestinian rights for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic.

It was clear that a campus JVP opened up a powerful, organic outlet through which Jewish students could safely exchange and process - without fear, intimidation or a need for self-censorship - their critiques, concerns, ideas, knowledge, questions, discoveries and plans to promote achievement of a genuinely mutual peace in Palestine/Israel. Before JVP came along, it wasn't possible to have an open discussion, or feel that we as Jews had an alternative to either unquestioning support of Israel (the status quo ) or staying silent and thus supporting it by default. I myself was silent and timid for much too long.

We are committed to acting out of Jewish ethical traditions, while holding Israel to the same standard as any other state in the international system - no more, no less. Before JVP, there was nothing on my campus that was critical of Israel from an American Jewish perspective. Zero. The group's success demonstrated that young Jews - moved by their cultural or religious values, which include a belief in universal human rights - have been on campus all the while, ready and willing to join a human rights-based cause for justice in Palestine/Israel. All it took to gain support on campus and elsewhere in the state was a potent sprinkling of opportunity, initiative and political will.

In Athens, as I write, waiting to board the Audacity of Hope, I am wearing a Star of David amulet around my neck, which was given to me the night before I left Arizona by a dear friend and fellow JVP organizer. She got it from a silversmith in Haifa while on a "Birthright" trip as an adolescent. For her, it had always been the reminder of the crude brainwashing she felt she had encountered on that trip. But when she came across the star recently, she decided it might be put to good use if I were to wear it on my journey. And so that's what I'm doing.

I wear it as a symbol of the basic values of Judaism that I feel are not emphasized sufficiently today: the imperative to welcome the stranger as you would want to be welcomed; and of helping to free the slave from a bondage that you would not wish to suffer.

As a consequence of various nonviolent actions undertaken all over the world, led crucially by Palestinians on the ground, the Israeli occupation will one day end. Those of us who face up to the unavoidable choice of either tolerating or resisting these crimes will determine how long the death and suffering of mainly Palestinian noncombatants continues, and how long a lasting peace in Palestine/Israel remains out of reach.

Gabriel Matthew Schivone is a Chicano-Jewish American from Tucson, and coordinator of Jewish Voice for Peace at the University of Arizona.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-moment-before-boarding-the-next-flotilla-1.369336

[mawilson 2,133]

I love how WoM keeps posting anti-Israel articles written by American Jews, as if that somehow gives their opinions more credibility.

It's the old "I can't be a racist because I have a black friend" dodge.

[William33 110]

I disagree. Of course the moderators each will do what they want, with, or without guidance collectively, or from on high, then rally behind the action of that moderator, no matter how far he or she wanders off the reservation. But so far, this has been a reasonable, and heated adult conversation. Sweeping such strong emotional issues under the carpet, especially when people's lives are at stake, has exacerbated this situation, and when finally useful dialogue and insight is occurring, you get squeamish.

Interesting perspective, but dead wrong. As others have stated, this issue will not get resolved here. You should note that the Moderator's objective here, was to calibrate what was in fact getting out of control. The thread was not closed, which your response would have addressed.

[웃 910]

I am not sure if I agree with WMD

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Interesting perspective, but dead wrong. As others have stated, this issue will not get resolved here. You should note that the Moderator's objective here, was to calibrate what was in fact getting out of control. The thread was not closed, which your response would have addressed.

It may not get resolved here, but the dialogue has to start somewhere. My preemptive strike was successful.

[William33 110]

It may not get resolved here, but the dialogue has to start somewhere. My preemptive strike was successful.

It was responded to with text and that's about all.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I love how WoM keeps posting anti-Israel articles written by American Jews, as if that somehow gives their opinions more credibility.

It's the old "I can't be a racist because I have a black friend" dodge.

That doesn't even make any sense. You shouldn't post when you're so emotional.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Why is the credibilty of their opinions questionable? Because WOM posted them or because they disagree with your pov? Not all Jews are Zionists and many abhor the harm Israel causes in the name of Judaism. Is there just no credibility in Jewish dissent?

I love how WoM keeps posting anti-Israel articles written by American Jews, as if that somehow gives their opinions more credibility.

It's the old "I can't be a racist because I have a black friend" dodge.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Now after the childishness and the comedy, I would like to try to get back on track here, because there were a lot of interesting points being made and the discussion was very enjoyable.

I would have to say you last comments to my post are fair WOM. We can agree that Israel needs to be focusing not just on ending new settlements but will absolutely need to dismantle many before anything resembling peace takes shape. Ditto for Israel ending the blockade and occupation of what will need to become territory of the State of Palestine. All difficult to accomplish with Benny & Co. in power.

But the conflict doesn't take place in a vacuum. Jews were also ethnically removed, all but wiped and or forced out of ME Arab nations since 1948.

I would like to comment in depth here.

Yes, many Jews were expelled from many of the Arab countries in 1948, their property seized - and that was outrageous, horrible, legally and morally inexcusable. Some Jews were officially expelled, some were “encouraged to leave“ by the Arab governments (very frightening,) and some simply fled in fear, leaving everything behind.

But this also did not occur in a vacuum - it was a direct response (however wrong it was) to what Israel itself was doing in 1948 - expelling the Palestinians.

The government of Israel officially considers all Jews from Arab countries to be refugees.

However, not all the Sephardim and Mizrahim (“Arab Jews” as Palestinians call them) who ended up in Israel were forced out of Muslim countries - hundreds of thousands who came to the new Jewish State did so of their own choice. Some were (understandably) uneasy about the changing political situation and growing insecurity in their home countries, and decided to make the move for that reason.

But many also had their own yearnings to go. They were strongly urged to do so by the Israeli government - which was willing to provide transport and everything needed. New immigrants were given many financial and other incentives to make it very tempting.

“I have this to say: I am not a refugee. I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee”

- Ran Cohen, born in Iraq, former member of Knesset

“We are not refugees. [some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations.”

- Yisrael Yeshayahu, born in Yemen, former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party

“I do not regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”

- Shlomo Hillel, born in Iraq, former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party

Some Arab countries actually tried to persuade their Jewish citizens to stay. Jews were a significant part of the fabric of society in many Middle Eastern countries, and their sudden mass departure would leave some pretty big gaps in business and commerce.

If you remember the piece I posted here:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/topic/312245-on-the-day-yafas-refugees-return/page__p__4700624__fromsearch__1#entry4700624

...there is a very insightful conversation with a Moroccan Jew (now an Israeli.) Remembering Morocco, he says:

“They’re good people there, no two ways about it. Morocco is a good place. And they welcome us very nicely. And they agree, they keep telling us we belong there.”

However, as mentioned, the government of Israel officially considers all Jews from Arab countries to be “refugees,” with a long list of claims to property and rights to compensation.

This is of course in direct contradiction to its own policy of refusing any responsibility toward rights to property and/or compensation for the Palestinians. One idea it’s actually floated a few times is that the claims of losses of Jewish property in Arab countries could somehow “cancel out” the claims of the Palestinians - as in “you keep all the stuff Jews left there, and we’ll keep the Palestinians’ stuff.“

The Holocaust did take place.

Yes there was a Holocaust. But the Palestinian people are not responsible for it. The Holocaust does not justify inflicting the Nakba on the Palestinians.

An Israeli stamp in your passport still means you can't enter certain ME countries. There are still ME countries continuing to call for the total destruction of Israel.

ME Arabs generally view Islamic law as perfect, the penalty for stating otherwise can mean death. There is no historical record of equality for non-Muslims in the region.

The Palestinian cause has been a useful tool for Arab despots and Soviet Cold War intrigue but seldom for the benefit of the Palestinian people.

The reason the Israeli stamp gets you barred in some Arab countries is because there is still a state of war between Israel and several Arab countries as well as the Palestinians. It's the same for the "calls for destruction." Those will eventually evaporate after there is a peace agreement and a resolution to the various conflicts Israel has instigated with its neighbors.

BTW it's not just the Arab countries doing this - Israel also bars a LOT of people from Arab countries from entering Israel (frequently even preventing Palestinians who were born there from re-entering the West Bank.)

Still, I don't see how any of this justifies Israel’s continuing illegal occupation and settlement enterprise, which are the actual reasons that there is no Palestinian state yet.

Long story short a vast array of historical events have led to the present state of affairs in the region, far too complex to simply say Israel is the main reason there is no Palestine. At least from my perspective.

I’ll say it again: the main reason there isn’t a Palestinian state today is because successive Israeli governments don’t want there to be one.

Sure, you can go through the history and pick out this or that moment that might have been decisive, maybe changed history at that moment in time.

But the ongoing, ever-expanding settlement program makes it quite obvious why successive Israeli governments have continued the same pattern of stalling on one pretext or another - they want to hold off any final negotiations until they have finished taking the maximum amount of Palestinian land.

The only thing that has stopped Israel from finishing the job is the belated and still feeble intervention of the international community, and the ceaseless work of human rights activists (many of whom are....ta dum Ma Wilson....Jewish.)