Do I have to do this all over again?

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

So I've been cogitating a little bit on the TOS (hey, I'm a lawyer, and it's interesting to me) and I'm just wondering about a couple of things in there, which I have in this very sub-forum wondered about before in days gone by. Is it or is it not a violation of the following clauses of the TOS on "Permited Uses" when certain prejudicial stereotypes about women of particular nationalities are regularly trotted out on a near-daily basis?

By way of example, and not as a limitation, you agree that when using the Service, you will not:

Post Content intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a broad demographic or group of people identified by a unifying trait or characteristic (discrimination). For instance, racist or sexist content may be considered hate speech.

Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Forums.

Make comments in a Post either direct or implied toward another member that are purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users.

As a woman, and as a woman of the demographic against which mud is thrown frequently in certain areas of this site, I can say that I feel very uncomfortable reading some of the things posted. Now, you can all go and tell me to be a big girl and not read these things, but the sentiment leaches into other, more general areas of the site. It creates a hostile environment on VJ as a whole, and it seems that by not trying to contain this behaviour, that the moderation and administration silently endorse such language. It is hate language.

Wait, let me say that again. It is hate language. It's not clever and it's not funny. It makes this place seem like some sort of boys' club, where women are either to be ogled (if conforming to one particular brand of beauty) or discussed in the most offensive terms. It's bullying behaviour. Sorry, it is.

I'm ready for the vitriol to roll in from the usual suspects, and guys, I don't give a damn if you think I'm a harpy or bitter or ugly, because I know I'm not and I'm secure in that. I'm more concerned about the other, silent women on here who read this and feel they can't pipe up because "that's just VJ." It's discriminatory and it needs to stop.

I'm taking a stand and I don't care what any of you think. THE HATE NEEDS TO STOP.

[jundp 191]

It is also a shame that women who may have something of benefit to add to this site, as it pertains to immigration, choose to leave because of the hate.

For a site that is supposedly dedication to helping people through the immigration process, the spewing of vitriol seems counter-productive...unless the intent is for this site to become a place where men can pump their fists to their manliness, talk about abusing women, degrade women, and oh yes, solicit wives...

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I suspect it isn't just women who take issue with the language used. I admit that I never thought too much of it, because the most egregious offenders--I imagine them backslapping each other while wearing very highwaisted dockers--are pretty small in number and just seem to need attention. But Maven makes an excellent point: A lot of the stuff posted isn't just pathetic and vulgar, but truly offensive and beyond simple objectification. That some of the sharpest exchanges of views take place in regional subforums rather than, say, P&R is telling.

I do wonder about how this might be handled. Personally, I don't care too much myself because some people simply aren't worth listening to. However, I know for a fact that several members with valuable insight have left VJ because of some people who apparently have all day to sit at the computer, insult others (while claiming to have an exciting and rich life, but that's an aside), and act like fools. I can only imagine how many other readers lurk and don't even want to risk posting anything. That is a real shame, but it seems to be the way it is in forums with a lot of users. It's easy to be a blathering idiot when you don't have to look anyone in the eye, and no one can see your extra pleats.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Empress of Groovy

[The Dude 206]

I learned long ago that misogyny, bigotry, and stupidity are apparently allowed on VJ. However, if you point out to the misogynist, bigot, or moron how stupid they are, you get a suspension.

[Lansbury 19]

It's why I hardly bother much with VJ these days, or for sometime now, and frequent another forum.

[Darnell 8,478]

ElmCityMaven -

I'm glad you made the time to read it, and even more glad that you 'made the connection'.

Now what ? Good Luck with whatever you'd like to accomplish !

(I say this as a fella who came to the same conclusion about 13 months ago)

Edited June 10, 2011 by Darnell

[Darnell 8,478]

I learned long ago that misogyny, bigotry, and stupidity are apparently allowed on VJ. However, if you point out to the misogynist, bigot, or moron how stupid they are, you get a suspension.

One of the lessons I LEARNED was that you get MORE ACTION by reporting the posts, rather than actually playing along with that other member. YMMV, greatly, however.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Darnell

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

ElmCityMaven -

I'm glad you made the time to read it, and even more glad that you 'made the connection'.

Now what ? Good Luck with whatever you'd like to accomplish !

(I say this as a fella who came to the same conclusion about 13 months ago)

If you read my post, I made the connection many moons ago -- indeed, I had posted a similar thread in the past. It is time the topic be broached again.

What do I want to accomplish? Read my post. I think it's self-explanatory.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Of course, Ewok just eliminate all extracurricular activity, and get back to what this site does best: Out of date guidance, and bad immigration advice.

[Krikit 1,164]

Post not pertaining to the topic has been removed.

I do agree that this is a problem and we are working behind the scenes to do something about it.

[Moomin 292]

How about making an offtopic for the current regions' subforum and let it only be visible to members clicking that specific offtopic in the region. If possible, it'll eliminate those unrelated topics from the "view new content" and still be a place to share those thoughts that some may find offensive yet not against TOS.

[Fandango 1,439]

Most of the time, I enjoy the slight bickering with the ppl in question. It's actually quite amusing to me most times to run into people with such archaic views. It's quite a novelty to interact with those who finally feel the 'freedom' to be as insulting as they can be -presumably as it fills some therapeutic need for self esteem recovery - 'It's not me, it's all THEM' . It's self jjustified by the fact that they did, indeed, get someone to marry them, so of course it must everyone else that was the problem. Irl, I have never met anyone even close to that, and I have to admit, it's like driving past a very bad car crash....you can't help but look. I joke with my BFF who's also a member here, that Ewok has created this site solely for a Master's thesis in sociology.

However, there are those times when I really am shocked by the rampant disrespect., and shocked by the level of tolerance to it. Some posters just don't seem to 'get it'...that it's not 'us vs them'. That we're not jealous of their happiness, and the only thing we object to is the means in which they express their happiness - in relation to feeling the need to put down others.

The post in q that I believe started this whole thing off was a very nonchalant anecdote about a particular poster telling his wife 'if your mom was half as lippy as you are, no wonder her husband beat her azz every day' Or something to that effect. I said it in that thread, and M said it here...it's neither clever nor funny. And it's quite insulting to the community as a whole to have a poster who feels it's not only appropriate to say, but then berates anyone who claims it's offensive. And then it gets into 'I refuse to be PC' as if THAT'S the issue. PC? Is that what this is all about? Joking about domestic violence is not funny. It's socially retarded (in the literal sense) to even think it's acceptable to repeat in mixed company. No one here gives a toss about the dynamic of any individual couple, but what is acceptable to that couple should not automatically make it acceptable to the VJ collective.

Then of course, the pack descends, and then it's another same old same old clusterfluff with the usual suspects (on both sides).

In this particular case, the silence of the majority is deafening. Not one other poster took umbrage by what was said. In fact, the other posts denigrated into the usual back and forth. So am I to presume that not one man in that forum who read that thread feels it's ok to joke about your MIL's past of being beaten? Is that really funny at all?

I don't actually think anything will change though. This topic has been talked about til the horse is well and truly dead. The only way it can change is through heavy moderation - because let's face it, enlightenment - although preferrable - will never happen. I'm not really a fan of heavy moderation in the general sense. But that is my opinion based on normal adult behavior. This falls beyond the scope of that. I highly doubt these posters who so freely put down American women as <insert your choice here> would voice this to their mothers, sisters, female friends. I think those who beat their chests and objectify their own wives are only doing so here, because they can. Sure, to some of these men, going home to a gorgeous wife must seem like something that (pre-internet) was entirely impossible. They must feel like they won the lottery (let's face it, the GC is a wonderful equalizer) So most of the time, I try to remember that and that makes me feel bad enough for them, that it gives me more tolerance for their behavior.

But in the grand scheme of VJ, they are a wart on the azz of the site, and have driven members away. How Ewok wants to deal with that is his choice.

eta: imo, it's not about just sweeping up after certain people by invising offending posts. I say leave it out there, and if mod action IS taken, it needs to be publicly shared to show that this type of behavior is not acceptable here. Not just getting out the broom and cleaning up someone's mess....people need to stand publicly accountable for what they say, and invising is not the way.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Anita Cocktail

[Darnell 8,478]

I'm a fan of heavy moderating/moderation/mod work.

[missmissy 38]

Have you ever gone back to your high school reunion and see everyone you haven't seen for a while? Didn't it feel strange that some of them seemed stuck in a time-warp while you had been able to move on, grow-up and get out? That's how I see VJ and some of the members here. Coming back after being gone for a while - nothing has changed!!

I don't feel compelled to lump all American men into one big fat, lazy, balding, beer-drinking, cheating, lying, mama's boy, can't keep a job and have to be supported by your wife group - but it's an accurate description of my ex and my marriage to him! I'm not fat, lazy or stupid, a foreign man wasn't the only one I could "trick" into marrying me and we are very happy with our life. Isn't that the point?

Write about your happiness, your joy, your passion. Leave off the comments about everyone else.

[B_J 2,752]

Most of the time, I enjoy the slight bickering with the ppl in question. It's actually quite amusing to me most times to run into people with such archaic views.

I think that's part of the problem. There should be no friendly bickering; if it's offensive then it's offensive and it needs to quit. I know it's difficult not to bicker but I really don't think it serves a purpose. Of course, if you think you can convince the person to change their views then that's different; but to bicker over something that is a clear violation of TOS just prolongs the problem. I would prefer quick reporting of violations and strong enforcement of consequences.

The very nature of this site means we will have people of different cultures, religions, etc. I thought this would be site filled with open minded, tolerant people.