Are Personals Web Sites considered Marriage Brokers?

[Swamped 0]

What we think is a marriage broker is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what IMBRA defines as an IMB, what USCIS thinks is an IMB as defined by IMBRA, and whether USCIS think the law has been complied with in each case.

What Gary says is also right. I've seen many members who answered "Yes" to whether or not they used a marriage broker, get approved. I have also seen many who answered "No" get approved. I believe some people are either ignoring or not reading the "exceptions" to the law correctly. JMO

[turbo2253 0]

In the recent thread on IMBRA,

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31286

there is a definition of a marriage broker:

(4) INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) IN GENERAL .—The term ‘‘international marriage broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the United States, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between United States citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States as permanent residents and foreign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals.

( EXCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

---

By this definition, it seems to me that anyone who met on a personals website, including in a chat room, used an International Marriage Broker.

I would welcome other opinions.

Tom

Your answer is simple, exception; (ii)says a dating service that charges the same fee for everyone is NOT an IMB!

mike

[garya505 2]

In the recent thread on IMBRA,

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31286

there is a definition of a marriage broker:

(4) INTERNATIONAL MARRIAGE BROKER

.—

(A) IN GENERAL .—The term ‘‘international marriage broker’’ means a corporation, partnership, business, individual, or other legal entity, whether or not organized under any law of the United States, that charges fees for providing dating, matrimonial, matchmaking services, or social referrals between United States citizens or nationals or aliens lawfully admitted to the United States as permanent residents and foreign national clients by providing personal contact information or otherwise facilitating communication between individuals.

( EXCEPTIONS

.—Such term does not include—

(i) a traditional matchmaking organization of a cultural or religious nature that operates on a nonprofit

basis and otherwise operates in compliance with the laws of the countries in which it operates, including

the laws of the United States; or

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its principal business is not to provide international dating

services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals and it charges

comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s

gender or country of citizenship.

---

By this definition, it seems to me that anyone who met on a personals website, including in a chat room, used an International Marriage Broker.

I would welcome other opinions.

Tom

Your answer is simple, exception; (ii)says a dating service that charges the same fee for everyone is NOT an IMB!

mike

Actually no it doesn't say that, it says:

(ii) an entity that provides dating services if its principal business is not to provide international dating services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals and it charges comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s gender or country of citizenship.

It would have to satisfy BOTH requirements - 1) principal business is not to provide international dating services between United States citizens or United States residents and foreign nationals, and 2) charge comparable rates and offers comparable services to all individuals it serves regardless of the individual’s gender or country of citizenship.

The problem with this is that the definition of "principal business" may seem obvious at first glance but is probably impossible to quantify and certainly subject to interpretation. Does this mean 99%, or 90%, or 51% or its customers? What if it's a subsidiary of a larger company that provides many other products and services?

Edited September 13, 2006 by garya505

[dardislake 0]

If USCIS believes the site I met my fiance on is a Marriage Broker, what further difficulties are faced? A denial? More forms? Info from the site? Has anyone fallen into this predicament?

[garya505 2]

If USCIS believes the site I met my fiance on is a Marriage Broker, what further difficulties are faced? A denial? More forms? Info from the site? Has anyone fallen into this predicament?

It's probably not a problem, as least as far as what we have heard. Just be honest in all of the information you give to USCIS. Any attempt to deceive them could be fraught with peril.

[Mew 0]

If USCIS believes the site I met my fiance on is a Marriage Broker, what further difficulties are faced? A denial? More forms? Info from the site? Has anyone fallen into this predicament?

I'd assume they'd ask you to provide info on the marriage broker. See Question 19 (I-129f).

[Yodrak 7]

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

.... I've seen many members who answered "Yes" to whether or not they used a marriage broker, get approved. ...

[garya505 2]

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

Does it make a difference if we use use an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA and using one that is compliant? Does USCIS care?

Do we know for sure that a knowingly using an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA won't cause a denial?

[Mew 0]

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

Does it make a difference if we use use an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA and using one that is compliant? Does USCIS care?

Do we know for sure that a knowingly using an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA won't cause a denial?

I don't think it's the petitioner's or the applicant's role or responsibility to make sure that the marriage broker through which they've met complies with IMBRA dispositions on IMBs.

[Yodrak 7]

garya,

Good questions. A few more along the same line:

- Has anyone had their petition denied post IMBRA? And if so, was the denial based on the IMB sections of IMBRA? (Or on some other aspect of the act, such as waiver of too many petitions denied.)

- Does anyone who used some sort of marriage, dating, or introduction service know how USCIS classified that service (IMB or not IMB) in the processing of the petition?

Yodrak

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

Does it make a difference if we use use an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA and using one that is compliant? Does USCIS care?

Do we know for sure that a knowingly using an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA won't cause a denial?

Edited September 15, 2006 by Yodrak

[garya505 2]

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

Does it make a difference if we use use an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA and using one that is compliant? Does USCIS care?

Do we know for sure that a knowingly using an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA won't cause a denial?

I don't think it's the petitioner's or the applicant's role or responsibility to make sure that the marriage broker through which they've met complies with IMBRA dispositions on IMBs.

What we think is irrelevant if the a USCIS, DHS, or consulate authority thinks a law was violated and the petitioner knew it. Keep in mind that some of the people behind IMBRA had motives other than protecting the healthy and safety of immigrant brides, as some of them just don't like the fact that there ARE immigrant brides and want to end the process altogether. All you have to do is look at the working of the law and this is obvious. Unfortunately some of the authorities may have the same mindset.

[aussiewench 9]

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

Does it make a difference if we use use an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA and using one that is compliant? Does USCIS care?

Do we know for sure that a knowingly using an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA won't cause a denial?

I don't think it's the petitioner's or the applicant's role or responsibility to make sure that the marriage broker through which they've met complies with IMBRA dispositions on IMBs.

What we think is irrelevant if the a USCIS, DHS, or consulate authority thinks a law was violated and the petitioner knew it. Keep in mind that some of the people behind IMBRA had motives other than protecting the healthy and safety of immigrant brides, as some of them just don't like the fact that there ARE immigrant brides and want to end the process altogether. All you have to do is look at the working of the law and this is obvious. Unfortunately some of the authorities may have the same mindset.

gary

Whilst I agree with you that their is motive behind IMBRA re a certain group, I do not believe that we will see the actual petitions denied for the above reason. Any implications I feel may come at interview stage and that we are yet to see. USCIS decides if the petition filed by the USC is eligible.

1) The petitioner s a USC

2) That both the petitioner and beneficiary are free to marry

3) Meet any other requirements of the petition such as having met within the required two year period

4) Have fully completed the petition, including the IMBRA added questions.

5) That any police/court records are submitted if the USC has past convictions

6) Consider any waivers that are submitted for multiple petitions

From the various guidelines that were issued to the service centers, petitions can be denied

*if one has multiple petitions combined with a history of violent criminal offenses.

*if an RFE is issued and the petitioner fails to respond

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/han...IMBRA072106.pdf

*When the beneficiary is in the United States or falls within the jurisdiction of a USCIS office overseas, the disclosure to the beneficiary shall be by way of an in-person interview at the local office. The disclosure may lead to a delay in adjudication while the beneficiary considers the information disclosed. Disclosure may also lead to a determination that the relationship is not viable, resulting in denial of the petition.http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/han...CrHst050306.pdf

Also from the above link...

When the beneficiary is abroad, and the petition is approved2, any adverse information that might affect the health or safety of a beneficiary should be provided to the Department of State (DOS), including by annotation of the petition as appropriate. DOS will make its own decision whether and how to disclose the information to the beneficiary.

On my understanding of the IMBRA those having met through a MB does not come into it until the interview whereby the foreign fiance/spouse (applicant) is asked whether they met through a MB, the name of the marriage broker, and if the MB provided to them all the required information including the background of the US petitioner. There is no way that I can see that USCIS can deny a petition just based on checking yes to having met through a marriage broker. That is not the role of USCIS, especially without any evidence one way or the other.

The one issue that possibly may arise at interview stage is if any conofs/consulates grandfather the IMBRA to include those that met prior to the law being implemented. I hope this doesn't occur as one cannot of possibly met the requirements of the IMBRA having met prior to March 6. Only time will tell once interviews start to be held. My thoughts are for the applicant to be ready for anything that may be asked and to be able to rebuke with confidence any attempt to grandfather.

Edited September 16, 2006 by aussiewench

[Mew 0]

I had posted it to another thread, but here it goes again, as I think it's relevant:

FIANCE(E)S, SPOUSES AND THEIR DERIVATIVES.

—During an interview with an applicant for a K nonimmigrant visa, a consular officers shall—

(A) provide information, in the primary language of the visa applicant, on protection orders or criminal convictions collected under subsection (a)(5)(A)(iii);

(B) provide a copy of the pamphlet developed under subsection (a)(1) in English or another appropriate language and provide an oral summary, in the primary language of the visa applicant, of that pamphlet; and

© ask the applicant, in the primary language of the applicant, whether an international marriage broker has facilitated the relationship between the applicant and the United States petitioner, and, if so, obtain the identity

of the international marriage broker from the applicant and confirm that the international marriage broker provided to the applicant the information and materials required under subsection (d)(3)(A)(iii).

Source>: http://www.online-dating-rights.com/pdf/IM...imbra%202005%22

[garya505 2]

Swamped,

And why wouldn't they be approved? Using an IMB is not grounds for denying a petition.

Yodrak

Does it make a difference if we use use an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA and using one that is compliant? Does USCIS care?

Do we know for sure that a knowingly using an IMB that is not compliant with IMBRA won't cause a denial?

I don't think it's the petitioner's or the applicant's role or responsibility to make sure that the marriage broker through which they've met complies with IMBRA dispositions on IMBs.

What we think is irrelevant if the a USCIS, DHS, or consulate authority thinks a law was violated and the petitioner knew it. Keep in mind that some of the people behind IMBRA had motives other than protecting the healthy and safety of immigrant brides, as some of them just don't like the fact that there ARE immigrant brides and want to end the process altogether. All you have to do is look at the working of the law and this is obvious. Unfortunately some of the authorities may have the same mindset.

gary

Whilst I agree with you that their is motive behind IMBRA re a certain group, I do not believe that we will see the actual petitions denied for the above reason. Any implications I feel may come at interview stage and that we are yet to see. USCIS decides if the petition filed by the USC is eligible.

1) The petitioner s a USC

2) That both the petitioner and beneficiary are free to marry

3) Meet any other requirements of the petition such as having met within the required two year period

4) Have fully completed the petition, including the IMBRA added questions.

5) That any police/court records are submitted if the USC has past convictions

6) Consider any waivers that are submitted for multiple petitions

From the various guidelines that were issued to the service centers, petitions can be denied

*if one has multiple petitions combined with a history of violent criminal offenses.

*if an RFE is issued and the petitioner fails to respond

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/han...IMBRA072106.pdf

*When the beneficiary is in the United States or falls within the jurisdiction of a USCIS office overseas, the disclosure to the beneficiary shall be by way of an in-person interview at the local office. The disclosure may lead to a delay in adjudication while the beneficiary considers the information disclosed. Disclosure may also lead to a determination that the relationship is not viable, resulting in denial of the petition.http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/lawsregs/han...CrHst050306.pdf

Also from the above link...

When the beneficiary is abroad, and the petition is approved2, any adverse information that might affect the health or safety of a beneficiary should be provided to the Department of State (DOS), including by annotation of the petition as appropriate. DOS will make its own decision whether and how to disclose the information to the beneficiary.

On my understanding of the IMBRA those having met through a MB does not come into it until the interview whereby the foreign fiance/spouse (applicant) is asked whether they met through a MB, the name of the marriage broker, and if the MB provided to them all the required information including the background of the US petitioner. There is no way that I can see that USCIS can deny a petition just based on checking yes to having met through a marriage broker. That is not the role of USCIS, especially without any evidence one way or the other.

The one issue that possibly may arise at interview stage is if any conofs/consulates grandfather the IMBRA to include those that met prior to the law being implemented. I hope this doesn't occur as one cannot of possibly met the requirements of the IMBRA having met prior to March 6. Only time will tell once interviews start to be held. My thoughts are for the applicant to be ready for anything that may be asked and to be able to rebuke with confidence any attempt to grandfather.

"On my understanding of the IMBRA those having met through a MB does not come into it until the interview whereby the foreign fiance/spouse (applicant) is asked whether they met through a MB, the name of the marriage broker, and if the MB provided to them all the required information including the background of the US petitioner. There is no way that I can see that USCIS can deny a petition just based on checking yes to having met through a marriage broker. That is not the role of USCIS, especially without any evidence one way or the other. "

And what happens when the beneficiary states that YES they did meet through a MB, and NO the MB did not provide any of the required information?

I had posted it to another thread, but here it goes again, as I think it's relevant:

FIANCE(E)S, SPOUSES AND THEIR DERIVATIVES.

—During an interview with an applicant for a K nonimmigrant visa, a consular officers shall—

(A) provide information, in the primary language of the visa applicant, on protection orders or criminal convictions collected under subsection (a)(5)(A)(iii);

(B) provide a copy of the pamphlet developed under subsection (a)(1) in English or another appropriate language and provide an oral summary, in the primary language of the visa applicant, of that pamphlet; and

© ask the applicant, in the primary language of the applicant, whether an international marriage broker has facilitated the relationship between the applicant and the United States petitioner, and, if so, obtain the identity of the international marriage broker from the applicant and confirm that the international marriage broker provided to the applicant the information and materials required under subsection (d)(3)(A)(iii).

Source>: http://www.online-dating-rights.com/pdf/IM...imbra%202005%22

There will be cases where the beneficiary will state that YES they did meet through a IMB, and NO the IMB did not provide any of the required information. The law doesn't say what happens then. Denial, AR or what? If there is no action taken if the beneficiary discloses that the IMB did not comply with the law, then what's the point of asking?

[Yodrak 7]

garya,

Good question, the answer to which we won't find out in detail until people get to that point. Keep your eye on my thread on the issue in this forum and Aussiewench's thread in the Foreign Embassy forum.

Some indication of what can happen may be provided by what happens already at many consulates when a consular officer discovers information during the course of a visa interview that they believe may have an effect on the decisions made by either the visa applicant or their petitioner - the consular officer will determine if the possibly affected party knows the information, and what is their response to learning the information, before issuing a visa.

What IMBRA does is make such a thing a required practice at all consulates with regard to information about the USC petitioner. If such information as is prescribed in IMBRA applies to the petitioner, the consular officer is required to verify that the visa applicant knows the information and is accepting of it. If the visa applicant does not know the information it will likely be given to them, and then they'll be asked if it changes their mind about wanting the visa.

Yodrak

And what happens when the beneficiary states that YES they did meet through a MB, and NO the MB did not provide any of the required information?

Edited September 18, 2006 by Yodrak