Republicans must be capable of believing as many as six impossible things before breakfast

[Captain Oates 911]

Of course heath care isn't free in Germany or anywhere else for that matter. Somehow it is paid for - either via payroll deductions or premium payments or general taxes or any combination thereof.

The reason why I broke down the numbers the way I did was to make clear that the 14% looks like a large number. But when you look at what the cost in the US is - it's significantly more. Naturally so since no developed country spends the insane amounts on health care that the US spends - both on a per captia basis and relative to GDP.

The interesting part then is that despite significantly lower expenses, all other developed nations cover their entire citizenry and achieve better outcomes than we do. They all get more for less. And yet, we're sitting here listening to politicians talking about the US having the best health care in the world. That's a flat-out lie. There is absolutely nothing that supports any such claim.

The biggest relief that this country could offer the business community, the single best thing that could be done to fire up the economy, encourage hiring by bringing down the cost of labor is to bring our health care expenses in line with other developed nations.

Of course the high wage deduction in Germany cannot be translated into a percentage of GDP which is about half that of the US and people who cannot work in Germany are not abandoned to charity as far as health care is concerned.

When I was bonkin' that psychiatrist in Ostfriesland she was always complaining about the low fees the krankenkasse paid her and how she had to hassle to get money out of them

Not like the US where they stride in and take your house and make you bankrupt and cast you into the street.

[wshc 46]

Bottom Line -

No one is denied health care in the USA based on any reason other than money. So you could say that the "right to healthcare" is not being denied anyone, it is available if you can pay.

I think we all agree that is bs, because the USA should be able to help people in need that require health care and don't have the means to buy it. The question is what the best way to do that is.

As I stated earlier, I have paid in much more than I ever got out, (in Germany), but I don't mind because you never know what happens tomorrow and a major medical procedures may have to be performed to save one's life for example. Just as with auto insurance, I pay in to the pool so that people that need coverage can get it, even if it cost more than they have paid in. I wouldn't call that socialized medicine, I would call that a team spirited approach. Something we as customers agree to when we pay our premiums.

But this problem has to be solved before anything like universal coverage will ever happen. And I will be blunt here - why should my premiums go to someone that does not have the self-motivation to get off of the couch to go to work and the only time they leave the house is to go to the doctor to get a prescription for strong acid reflux medicine because they eat nothing but chips and dip all day. They wouldn't even go to Wal-Mart and buy some Rolaids because that would have to come out of their own pocket, and the prescription cost comes out of my pocket. That is what Americans object to. Noone minds helping a truly needy person, not even us right wing wackos.

Solve that issue, and the health care system in America will work.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

But this problem has to be solved before anything like universal coverage will ever happen. And I will be blunt here - why should my premiums go to someone that does not have the self-motivation to get off of the couch to go to work and the only time they leave the house is to go to the doctor to get a prescription for strong acid reflux medicine because they eat nothing but chips and dip all day. They wouldn't even go to Wal-Mart and buy some Rolaids because that would have to come out of their own pocket, and the prescription cost comes out of my pocket. That is what Americans object to. Noone minds helping a truly needy person, not even us right wing wackos.

Just for the record: The chips and dip from your above example can't come out of the pocket of someone with no income. That's coming out of your pocket (and mine), too. As would the hypthetical rolaids, by the way.

The other thing is that you and I already pay for the medical care for that hypthetical person and their offspring - if any. That's Medicaid.

What we're talking about, then, is the access to medical services by people that actually work but happen to work at low wages and for an employer that doesn't provide adequate health care benefits. Or the start-up entrepreneur that cannot get health insurance because of a pre-existing condition that can't yet afford it because the cash flow of his start-up isn't there. That's the population we're talking about rather than those that make a career out of living on welfare.

Another point to consider is this: You - provided you carry health insurance today - and I already pay for the care of the uninsured that go to the emergency room or the local county health center. The emergency room is the most expensive care to be had. The question, then, is whether there is way to get people to be able to access the preventive and early care that's not accessible to a person today and results in the eventual utilization of the ER. There should be a good amount of savings to be had.

I guess, the bottom line really is that universal health care in and of itself lowers the overall cost of the health care system. I can't think of any rational explanation, IMO for this phenomenon of lower per capita health care expenses and better outcomes in developed countries that have universal health care vs. the US which does not. We've been shafted big time with this dysfunctional system that has developed here beased on the positively false assumption that the market would produce better results than the government.

[slim 1,530]

The homeless problem in the USA is nothing compared to what I have seen in

The United States is one of the only countries in the world where the only reason you're homeless is because you choose to be.

those who think they are ok until a tornado kills their family and rips their legs off - at that point they suddenly believe in socialized this and socialized that.

Or they could reap the benefits of the Medicare and Social Security taxes they've been required to pay their whole lives. Many of us have been paying into that since our early teens. It's only right that if something should happen to us we'd get our money back.

we are all born driving our own bodies and we have no choice about that and the cost if something goes wrong will fall on others

What I don't understand is why we find it necessary to pay to keep folks alive. I don't think folks have the right to stay alive if they can't afford to. We pay people to sit around, watch cable and reproduce and then when they have high blood pressure, diabetes, strokes and other problems (not to mention lung problems from smoking all those free cigarettes) we somehow feel obligated to make sure they stay alive longer to suck up some more free money. Why is that?

The very best approach would be for states to have their own programs

I think I read that somewhere...

the federal Gov't should not be dictating anything in this regard....

it's simply not in their job description. (IMO)

That's where I read it!

The Fed should do it again to secure this universal human RIGHT

Where are these universal human RIGHTs located? Most of our laws are based on English common law so you should be somewhat familiar with them (even though they've largely disappeared in modern times.)

We have certain unalienable rights and among those are life. However, there's nothing that guarantees our right to life be artificially inflated ad nauseum and can't naturally expire. Why should we continue to pay folks to trump God? When it's someone's time to go, why do we say it's time for the federal government to pay someone to step in and say it isn't?

[Captain Oates 911]

I sometimes feel tempted to round up all the Walmartians and suck out their blubber and convert it to diesel fuel thus helping the oil price

That is a primitive thought though and unworthy of a health care promoter and the exhaust smell would be yukky

We don't mind when we send our soldiers to be maimed and killed because it's for 'the greater good of the nation' (as in Vietnam) - so why shouldn't we sacrifice a few dollars for the greater good of the nation's health ?

Surely sacrificing soldier's lives is more expensive than dollars and both in the name of the same cause 'for the good of the nation as a whole, together, indivisible'

I often wonder about the indivisible and concluded it must be a geographic (mason-dixon)thing because nobody gives a hoot about anybody else in this land of milk and honey

Edited May 26, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

I sometimes feel tempted to round up all the Walmartians and suck out their blubber and convert it to diesel fuel thus helping the oil price

That is a primitive thought though and unworthy of a health care promoter and the exhaust smell would be yukky

We don't mind when we send our soldiers to be maimed and killed because it's for 'the greater good of the nation' (as in Vietnam) - so why shouldn't we sacrifice a few dollars for the greater good of the nation's health ?

Surely sacrificing soldier's lives is more expensive than dollars and both in the name of the same cause 'for the good of the nation as a whole, together, indivisible'

I often wonder about the indivisible and concluded it must be a geographic (mason-dixon)thing because nobody gives a hoot about anybody else in this land of milk and honey

Thank god your an ocean away.

[Captain Oates 911]

Thank god your an ocean away.

Chelan County, Washington State is an ocean away from where ?

[Ban Hammer 13,403]

Chelan County, Washington State is an ocean away from where ?

hey you two are in the same state!

[Captain Oates 911]

hey you two are in the same state!

Nah - he is a state of denial !

Cor - as soon as I convert one of these 'let em pay or let em die' merchants to the the enlightenment period, I will visit the US Embassy in London and give them a daffodil to celebrate the new dawn in America

[Captain Oates 911]

The United States is one of the only countries in the world where the only reason you're homeless is because you choose to be.

Or they could reap the benefits of the Medicare and Social Security taxes they've been required to pay their whole lives. Many of us have been paying into that since our early teens. It's only right that if something should happen to us we'd get our money back.

What I don't understand is why we find it necessary to pay to keep folks alive. I don't think folks have the right to stay alive if they can't afford to. We pay people to sit around, watch cable and reproduce and then when they have high blood pressure, diabetes, strokes and other problems (not to mention lung problems from smoking all those free cigarettes) we somehow feel obligated to make sure they stay alive longer to suck up some more free money. Why is that?

I think I read that somewhere...

That's where I read it!

Where are these universal human RIGHTs located? Most of our laws are based on English common law so you should be somewhat familiar with them (even though they've largely disappeared in modern times.)

We have certain unalienable rights and among those are life. However, there's nothing that guarantees our right to life be artificially inflated ad nauseum and can't naturally expire. Why should we continue to pay folks to trump God? When it's someone's time to go, why do we say it's time for the federal government to pay someone to step in and say it isn't?

yep I am familiar with English common law which is the basis of much of US law. In fact right up to the mid 1800, a new ' Stated case' in England's highest court would be sent immediately to the US for incorporation into the US code

This was before the 'perp walk' where people not yet charged or convicted are led in chains through the streets to the derision of the crowd and the waiting Media. Apart from Health, that too is the one big difference between the US and the first world and always shocks them. I have got over it now and I am just glad they stop short at public street lynchings - or even worse, being shown on HLN

When I was 24 I took the Police Inspectors exam in Criminal Law (which is as high as it goes) and came 4th in the UK. I have the certificate but my wife is one of these rabid US nationalists on VJ and doesn't rate anything which is not US - so it stays in the dark and is not displayed

Anyway I am a fixin' to 'trump god' as you say, and you will too after a few more trips round the sun - I would rather trump god than have Trump as god which is what the nasty right want.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The United States is one of the only countries in the world where the only reason you're homeless is because you choose to be.

On the contrary, among the developed countries, it is easiest to fall through the cracks and become homeless here in the US. I haven't seen as many homeless people as here in the US anywhere in Europe where I have lived most of my life.

[Captain Oates 911]

On the contrary, among the developed countries, it is easiest to fall through the cracks and become homeless here in the US. I haven't seen as many homeless people as here in the US anywhere in Europe where I have lived most of my life.

It's not just the homeless who are often drunks or mentally ill - it's the middle class like me who live in total insecurity - or I would if I wasn't well off and guaranteed everything by the UK government 100% if it goes wrong here in the US.

My wife's brother works for a health insurance company and his job is to pick holes in people's insurance so their crazily inflated hospital bills are rejected

The claimant then loses his house and is then made bankrupt and moves in with children if they are lucky. Some commit suicide. More people are made bankrupt by health (sickness) bills than ANY other reason in the USA - and get this, the majority HAD insurance.

It's the American way and it is horrible and needs changing fast.

If I was religious, I would pray that the right wingers who have the callousness to turn away from what goes on, should be the next to suffer a personal disaster.

I know that is vindictive but I should be allowed one mean thought

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Nothing's going to change anytime soon. This insane joke of a health care system needs to completely bankrupt the country first - which it will. Then people will demand that health care is treated as the human necessity it is first and that profit considerations come in a distant second. It will take something big for Americans to get across that 10,000 ft ideological wall that keeps them from understanding what every other developed country on the face of this planet already knows: the government does a better job than private enterprise when it comes to creating an acceptable, sustainable and affordable health care system. When Americans understand that health care cost is the biggest drag on the economy, the biggest obstacle to job creation and the biggest waste of economic power seen in human history, then we'll get somewhere. I am somewhat doubtful that I will live to see that happen but it will happen eventually. If it doesn't, this country will become irrelevant in the world.

[Danno 1,228]

yep I am familiar with English common law which is the basis of much of US law. In fact right up to the mid 1800, a new ' Stated case' in England's highest court would be sent immediately to the US for incorporation into the US code

This was before the 'perp walk' where people not yet charged or convicted are led in chains through the streets to the derision of the crowd and the waiting Media. Apart from Health, that too is the one big difference between the US and the first world and always shocks them. I have got over it now and I am just glad they stop short at public street lynchings - or even worse, being shown on HLN

When I was 24 I took the Police Inspectors exam in Criminal Law (which is as high as it goes) and came 4th in the UK. I have the certificate but my wife is one of these rabid US nationalists on VJ and doesn't rate anything which is not US - so it stays in the dark and is not displayed

Anyway I am a fixin' to 'trump god' as you say, and you will too after a few more trips round the sun - I would rather trump god than have Trump as god which is what the nasty right want.

From where did you get the expression "I'm fixin to"?

As far as I know that is a distinct Southern phrase.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Nothing's going to change anytime soon. This insane joke of a health care system needs to completely bankrupt the country first - which it will. Then people will demand that health care is treated as the human necessity it is first and that profit considerations come in a distant second. It will take something big for Americans to get across that 10,000 ft ideological wall that keeps them from understanding what every other developed country on the face of this planet already knows: the government does a better job than private enterprise when it comes to creating an acceptable, sustainable and affordable health care system. When Americans understand that health care cost is the biggest drag on the economy, the biggest obstacle to job creation and the biggest waste of economic power seen in human history, then we'll get somewhere. I am somewhat doubtful that I will live to see that happen but it will happen eventually. If it doesn't, this country will become irrelevant in the world.

Health care really isn't treated that way except in a few instances. Most doctors care, but most doctors also have to make a living at the end of the day. They work hard to do so, so what.

You'd rather treat them as slaves though I suppose under control of a masta from the gubmint.

oh and the 'problem' with health care is and always has been government from day one. Not the industry itself.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Paul and Vanessa