Chris Matthews Gets Schooled By Ron Paul

[Obama 2012 1,714]

No, I'm sure you don't. Private property (IE a home) you can decide not to admit whoever you like based on whatever criteria you like, but a business is not simply private property. A business is subject to all kinds of regulation from taxes to employment law, to discrimination law and beyond. All this regulation is designed to prevent or at least limit abuse. Who knew? I guess you and Ronnie. A little trip into the history books on labor laws and the like would enlighten you as to why these things were introduced. Mind you, if you really want to have children scampering about in factories again, we could get rid of regulation. Sounds like a sound business plan to me, not you?

according to whom?

[SuperDuper! 230]

"more people use heroin because its illegal."

Re your sig: So when this couple gets divorced in 5 years, she will make the best divorce proposal ever? Things and relationships just ain't what they seem.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Boing!

[B_J 2,752]

No, I'm sure you don't. Private property (IE a home) you can decide not to admit whoever you like based on whatever criteria you like, but a business is not simply private property. A business is subject to all kinds of regulation from taxes to employment law, to discrimination law and beyond. All this regulation is designed to prevent or at least limit abuse. Who knew? I guess you and Ronnie. A little trip into the history books on labor laws and the like would enlighten you as to why these things were introduced. Mind you, if you really want to have children scampering about in factories again, we could get rid of regulation. Sounds like a sound business plan to me, not you?

First, in case you missed it, I'm not saying I agree with the Pauls; I'm saying that they make a good argument.

Second, labor laws, children scampering around factories, etc. has nothing to do with the argument.

Third, in case you don't understand the point, the Pauls are questioning whether the discrimination laws should have been passed in regards to private property. And you still haven't really made a strong counter argument. You just pointed out that businesses are subject to regulations and we already know that. The question still remains as to the constitutional reasoning behind the laws.

I would like for the Pauls to be wrong; but I appreciate the reasoning in their argument. I would like you to be correct; but there hasn't been a lot of logical reasoning in your argument so far. 'kay?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

First, in case you missed it, I'm not saying I agree with the Pauls; I'm saying that they make a good argument.

Second, labor laws, children scampering around factories, etc. has nothing to do with the argument.

Third, in case you don't understand the point, the Pauls are questioning whether the discrimination laws should have been passed in regards to private property. And you still haven't really made a strong counter argument. You just pointed out that businesses are subject to regulations and we already know that. The question still remains as to the constitutional reasoning behind the laws.

I would like for the Pauls to be wrong; but I appreciate the reasoning in their argument. I would like you to be correct; but there hasn't been a lot of logical reasoning in your argument so far. 'kay?

If you believe that private ownership is absolute, then I could at least see why you'd think the argument has merit. However, private ownership, like most of our personal liberties, has its limits. For example, you cannot legally sell your home to only white people. That's discrimination. Now imagine if it were legal, what would happen to neighborhoods? Imagine what would happen if businesses were allowed to discriminate their patrons based on the color of their skin? The repercussions extend beyond your private property. Just think of how that would manifest itself in real life. A black person being turned away by the local drug store because of the color of their skin and they need medication urgently. Or imagine a private hospital turning that some person away, even though they need urgent medical attention. Private ownership isn't absolute any more than your personal liberties, at least in the context of a society full of individuals, each with their own personal liberties. And being able to live free of racial discrimination is a personal liberty.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Why?

The argument isn't that they should be allowed to do it because it's ancient history; the argument is that they should be allowed to do it because it is their private business and property and therefore they have the right. Why is he wrong in this?

It's ancient history is exactly what Mr. Paul argued. His words not mine. Guess you didn't watch the video?

Many businesses exist in leased property, pay rent for the store front. Does the property owner in such cases decide businesses can only cater to whites only? Or the business financing makes it in large part owned by a bank, can the bank tether a whites only clause to their loans?

[웃 910]

Property Shmoperty

[Obama 2012 1,714]

If you believe that private ownership is absolute, then I could at least see why you'd think the argument has merit. However, private ownership, like most of our personal liberties, has its limits. For example, you cannot legally sell your home to only white people. That's discrimination. Now imagine if it were legal, what would happen to neighborhoods? Imagine what would happen if businesses were allowed to discriminate their patrons based on the color of their skin? The repercussions extend beyond your private property. Just think of how that would manifest itself in real life. A black person being turned away by the local drug store because of the color of their skin and they need medication urgently. Or imagine a private hospital turning that some person away, even though they need urgent medical attention. Private ownership isn't absolute any more than your personal liberties, at least in the context of a society full of individuals, each with their own personal liberties. And being able to live free of racial discrimination is a personal liberty.

Bull.

What you're essentially saying if that you can have all the liberty you want, so long as you obey all the rules that take your personal liberty away.

You live under the assumption of that idiot Chris Matthews that all of a sudden the world is going to turn into race wars with proper property rights being kept. You're living in a delusional fantasy that all of a sudden we're all going to become big racist bastards and not give a damn about our fellow man.

I know this may come as a shock to you Steven, but the majority of people didn't even own slaves back in the day and a lot more people believe in equal rights for all mankind that you'd like to think.

So WHAT is there's bigots and racists in this country. Good, let them have their own town or city or state. That's what this country was made for. It was made so evil bigots can live their way of life and those who love all men can live their way of life as well. If a bigot doesn't want to serve a black man, a white man, a green martian man, then so be it. It's his problem.

Honestly, I wouldn't want a doctor or hospital treating me that I knew of the staff having an 'issue' with my skin tone or my beliefs and whatnot.

This delusional idea that everyone is going to become segregated worse than we already are today is absurd. Even if more people were out of the woodwork again, then so bit it as I said. Let them have their day and others can discriminate too. Boo-fvcking-hoo. Why should you care, why should anyone care.

You want liberty, that is liberty my friend. The free to live your life as you see fit, so long as you do not steal liberty from another, just as they cannot steal liberty from you.

You want to own land? - Go for it.

They want to own land? - Go for it.

You don't want to allow whites on your land? - Go for it.

You don't want to allow smoking in your business - Go for it.

However don't expect me to conform to you and your rules. Don't expect me to live the way you think I should live.

We have become so politically correct, we have become so lame as a society that we have forgotten in many ways what it is to be human. We think we can write and create laws that will end discrimination, that will cool attitudes and change the world. It doesn't work that way one bit. Human nature dictates that we ultimately will always have our fears, our disgust, our bigotry as a species towards those things we don't like. We are "SHOCKED" when these big cults or groups are uncovered full of racists/bigots, but the truth is, they never went away. They just went into hiding. They are your brother, they are your neighbor and they are your co-worker and you don't even know it.

As I said, I'd much rather know than not know. At least then I have that choice of who I want to associate with.

Taking away property rights from a business is stealing away liberty not only from the owners, but also from the patrons as well. You're giving them a cardboard product without even having the choice to know that the guy in the back spit in their food because they really don't want to serve black people, but they will get theirs on them regardless. Congratulations!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The freedom to run your own little tyranny. That's not liberty, it's bullshit

[B_J 2,752]

Property Shmoperty

Best argument yet.

[B_J 2,752]

If you believe that private ownership is absolute, then I could at least see why you'd think the argument has merit. However, private ownership, like most of our personal liberties, has its limits. For example, you cannot legally sell your home to only white people. That's discrimination. Now imagine if it were legal, what would happen to neighborhoods? Imagine what would happen if businesses were allowed to discriminate their patrons based on the color of their skin? The repercussions extend beyond your private property. Just think of how that would manifest itself in real life. A black person being turned away by the local drug store because of the color of their skin and they need medication urgently. Or imagine a private hospital turning that some person away, even though they need urgent medical attention. Private ownership isn't absolute any more than your personal liberties, at least in the context of a society full of individuals, each with their own personal liberties. And being able to live free of racial discrimination is a personal liberty.

I've actually never thought about the rights of property ownership until the Pauls brought it up.

I think anybody who would have a whites only business is a pig and their business shouldn't exist. I think the people of the Westboro Baptist Church are pigs and they shouldn't be allowed to do what they do. I find it curious how one is protected and the other isn't.

As to the business, I like the optimism of the Pauls idea. If we allowed the business to exist, then the American people are good enough that almost nobody would enter the racist establishment and it would soon cease to exist because of it's own choices. I like that better than trying to legislate people's thoughts. However, like many of the Paul ideas, I'm not sure they will work in the real world.

Again I'm not supporting their ideas, I'm just looking for a better argument that they are wrong besides the usual one of labeling them as racist.

[B_J 2,752]

Oops, double post.

Edited May 21, 2011 by B_J

[B_J 2,752]

Many businesses exist in leased property, pay rent for the store front. Does the property owner in such cases decide businesses can only cater to whites only? Or the business financing makes it in large part owned by a bank, can the bank tether a whites only clause to their loans?

That's an interesting point.

I'm assuming in those cases the Pauls would say that the property owner could decide what business could take place on their property. I would also assume, let's say it was financed through a bank, that the Pauls would say that no bank would approve of a whites only clause because it would be bad for their business. I know if I found out that my bank was approving loans to whites only businesses that it would no longer be my bank.

Not that any bank would really miss the tiny bit of money I have in there.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

The freedom to run your own little tyranny. That's not liberty, it's bullshit

Why is it BS?

Does a business not decide what brand or non-brand of products to sell?

Does a business not decide what price to sell their products at to be competitive?

Why should they not decide what customer base they wish to serve to be competitive? A lot of them actually do that already in case you didn't know. Men's stores, Women's stores, Stores geared towards certain 'ethnic' communities, etc..

I know it's hard being from the UK and understanding the functions of a business and what it takes, but let me explain something to you clear as day. Without customers, you won't be in business. If you do someething that offends the hell out of people and word gets out, you won't be in business or you will suffer greatly. If you give poor customer service to a person, they'll tell all of their friends, etc. If you give them GREAT customer service, you are LUCKY if they tell all of their friends, etc.

I know people have this idea that businesses are just there to screw random people over and not care about people, but you would be dead wrong to think that. Absolutely wrong.

[_Simpson_ 250]

I know people have this idea that businesses are just there to screw random people over and not care about people, but you would be dead wrong to think that. Absolutely wrong.

Dude, corporations = evil. Didn't you know?

[_Simpson_ 250]

Agreed, I'm not sure where my stance is on this issue either; but I hate seeing the Pauls labeled as racist because of where they stand on this.

Yes definitely not racist.

Re your sig: So when this couple gets divorced in 5 years, she will make the best divorce proposal ever? Things and relationships just ain't what they seem.

I know. Relationships are hard work and a Hollywood sort of approach will probably fail.

Edited May 21, 2011 by _Simpson_