Court: Chicago must hire 111 black firefighters

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Firstly, life's not fair. Generally when they come up with a passing rate, it's based on the lowest they are willing to take and they don't expect a certain amount of applicants. However when you have a extremely large number of applicants, you need to secondard layer to go by. If you get 1,000 applicants when you only expected 100, it's fair to say that the city needed a higher standard at that point. Especially when you have a large number who pass above that 89 mark..... To expect otherwise just because a person is "African-American" is silly. It's the same BS where the white kid who has high SAT scores is overlooked because the black kid scored 500 less, but he'll meet the school's student quota. It's #######.

Paul. Let me say again - if the pass rate were set at 89% that would be one thing. When it's set at 65% and then you say to people who pass that you'll only pick the people who score 89% or more - that's call moving the goal posts. But let's get the context right here - this relates to something that happened 16 years ago. The article actually states that the test NOW is pass/fail.

Secondly, who says all of the applicants even came from Chicago? Many people apply for police/fire jobs from long distances away.... What about the African-Americans that DID pass with 89 or higher. Are you going to discredit them for their hard work and effort just because a few others couldn't beef up their studying to pass the test and have the knowledge required?

I'm not discrediting anyone Paul, except maybe you of course. YOU suggested that blacks somehow weren't a significant demographic - not sure why you think that is somehow a relevant comment when in Chicago they clearly are.

Thirdly, 30% is fine and dandy, but there again, how many 'white' applicants were overlooked because they din't make an 89 or higher. Did anyone stop for one damn moment to think about that. Honestly? I can almost guarantee you there were a lot more white applicants who didn't score that high either. I don't see any cry of foul there though either. You won't see one. That's what makes this whole thing amusing.

How long is a piece of string Paul. But yes - lets suggest that blacks are also whiners (on top of being lazy underachievers). Perhaps we can have some more of your racist garbage about how people are not equal, because YOU say so.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And what sort of racist ####### are you trying to throw out there Duncan? I guess you think African Americans are inherently inferior and cannot compete unless we lower standards to include the barely passing.

No Bill, I don't. But thanks for trying again to bait me. The NHS didn't work, neither did this. Back to the drawing board?

[sandinista! 1,816]

What about dealing with a Hazmat situation. A chemical fire for example. Who do you want fighting this fire? The force that only understands ebonics and gets 65% on the test that was designed for them in the first place. Or Someone with a chemical knowledge to understand a danger to the community when X and Y chemical gets mixed together in a roaring 3 alarm fire.

there is no evidence whatsoever that anyone taking the test and passing "only understands ebonics", or lacks this level of comprehension. you don't know what the contents of the exam were, or what the lower scoring applicants' exact weaknesses on the exam were.

do you know what your own personal doctor's scores were on their medical boards, before they'd be allowed to operate on you? if you have kids, do you know for sure that their pediatrician scored higher than the minimum needed to pass their boards? there are plenty of high scoring drs out there, who probably should not be practicing medicine, regardless. and there are probably ones out there who scored lower, but do excellent work. some people who do excellent work, will always suck at taking exams. and some people who do well on exams can't translate that same level of performance to when they're out in the field.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

How long is a piece of string Paul. But yes - lets suggest that blacks are also whiners (on top of being lazy underachievers). Perhaps we can have some more of your racist garbage about how people are not equal, because YOU say so.

I'm not the racist my friend. I hold everyone to the same standards.

I point out that more white guys probably were below that threshold than black guys, now i'm the racist? You really need a dose of reality.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm not the racist my friend. I hold everyone to the same standards.

I point out that more white guys probably were below that threshold than black guys, now i'm the racist? You really need a dose of reality.

You suggested in post 16 (and previously in other threads) that you don't believe that people are equal or that they should be treated as such.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

You suggested in post 16 (and previously in other threads) that you don't believe that people are equal or that they should be treated as such.

People overall aren't 'equal' when it comes to potential/mental capabilities.

When it comes down to 'race' though, trying to segregate one group from another is ridiculous. There are far more white people on welfare than black people, but you're 'racist' if you dare try to point that out.

[Vi-Jay 218]

Would you please, if you don't mind, provide some evidence?

What I have read, the only glitch in the test design was pass or fail.

Bump

This is really about affirmative action isn't it?

[Zero Sum 305]

I'll have to ask a friend in town that's in the CFD about what he hears from the inside. He is black and has not been shy about racism from the majority white firefighter corps in the past. There's no surprise in commentary from the panoramic panel of experts on this site either.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I'll have to ask a friend in town that's in the CFD about what he hears from the inside. He is black and has not been shy about racism from the majority white firefighter corps in the past. There's no surprise in commentary from the panoramic panel of experts on this site either.

Oh please do us the pleasure of expanding on this.

[Zero Sum 305]

Oh please do us the pleasure of expanding on this.

Did you feel identified in some way?

Its better to make proclamations of fact when one is informed. At worst, make interpretations based on having an honest knowledge of the facts at hand. That's what substantive commentary is all about.

[Zero Sum 305]

What about dealing with a Hazmat situation. A chemical fire for example. Who do you want fighting this fire? The force that only understands ebonics and gets 65% on the test that was designed for them in the first place. Or Someone with a chemical knowledge to understand a danger to the community when X and Y chemical gets mixed together in a roaring 3 alarm fire.

Wow that's a bit harsh of a statement that probably doesn't fit well with much other than a resentment towards people that "communicate in ebonics." In that same fire I bet you're not assuming that practical experience is built on adding the correct neutralizing agents right?

For the most part I doubt any existing CFD firefighter can't mess that one up from their training. I notice that resentment in the way you polarize your logic to perhaps make a point that is irrelevant to the selection procedure.

All of this is about dumbing down society really.

As I've stated before (and been blasted for by some) when you try and treat everyone equally, you're going to get subpar results.

This is why we fall behind on science against the rest of the world now as well. We have the bright minds, they are just stuck in classes with the simpletons.

We're too afraid in this society today to 'discriminate' against someone when we really should be. If a person is brighter and smarter, then let them be brighter and smarter. Let them succeed. Someone posted a few weeks ago saying, 'well we don't want an elitist mentality..' - In all honesty, while an elitist mentality sucks, it beats dumbing down society. If someone is truly bright, is truly better, then let them be better. Don't hold them back because of jealousy or you're ASSUMPTION that they will become a #######.

Sometimes the 'bright' minds try to teach, but many times the 'simple' minds think they know everything there is to know and brag about it to boot.

That's because yankee land is still pretty segregated. That's besides the point however.

The point is, if the brighest and the best are punished because others are not, then we are doomed as a society. The incident in Chicago, the incident in New Hampshire, they are just small examples of an overall symptom to a problem that runs much deeper than firefighter/civil service exams. It all goes hand in hand with the BS that is affirmative action and the likes.

No Paul, you actually are on to something here in that segregation. Its what to this day, contributes to the production of subpar testing for these positions on average by racial group. The segregation bleeds into the economics and produces that inequality you have correctly identified time and time again.

Of course you do.

If you have such a high number of applicants, then you need a further standard to go by. Why would you not want the best of the best?

It's not the fault of the city that the African-Americans didn't have a large percentage of individuals who passed at a higher level.

It's not even like African-Americans are a large part of the population as a whole either. I know we like to act lie they are, but even the Hispanics dwarf the African-American community through and through.

This would be like the Asian-Americans getting up in arms about the same thing. Granted, the Asian-Americans would have worked hard to make sure they were in the top percentile, but that of course is due to a cultural difference as well...

I agree. The City should not really be held accountable for the hiring as long as the selection procedure is shown to be color-blind.

The City is responsible for its Dept of Education producing more apt job candidates. Too bade many are against properly funding and staffing education.

[Zero Sum 305]

Firstly, life's not fair. Generally when they come up with a passing rate, it's based on the lowest they are willing to take and they don't expect a certain amount of applicants. However when you have a extremely large number of applicants, you need to secondard layer to go by. If you get 1,000 applicants when you only expected 100, it's fair to say that the city needed a higher standard at that point. Especially when you have a large number who pass above that 89 mark..... To expect otherwise just because a person is "African-American" is silly. It's the same BS where the white kid who has high SAT scores is overlooked because the black kid scored 500 less, but he'll meet the school's student quota. It's #######.

Secondly, who says all of the applicants even came from Chicago? Many people apply for police/fire jobs from long distances away.... What about the African-Americans that DID pass with 89 or higher. Are you going to discredit them for their hard work and effort just because a few others couldn't beef up their studying to pass the test and have the knowledge required?

Thirdly, 30% is fine and dandy, but there again, how many 'white' applicants were overlooked because they din't make an 89 or higher. Did anyone stop for one damn moment to think about that. Honestly? I can almost guarantee you there were a lot more white applicants who didn't score that high either. I don't see any cry of foul there though either. You won't see one. That's what makes this whole thing amusing.

I'll address those white applicants that didn't meet the required score. White job candidates (remember your unequal/segregated comments in this thread, so in essence I'm only building on your logic here) come from a statistically more prepared and hence, more benefitted candidate sector and hence, per capita, outperform black candidates on selections exams. More white candidates take the test than black candidates, hence the absolute numbers comment you're making holds as-is just by virtue of the results distribution overall, and its breakdown within race of candidates. Although you'd need to exact numbers and statistics on this to make the point in the first place.

[Zero Sum 305]

Speaking of Chicago... congatulations to Rahm Emmanuel on his inaguration today as Mayor of the City.

I know that's really got to upset lots of people, including people that don't live here... but so be it. Hopefully he pushes the City forward in a direction that desegregates town so that future CFD candidates can be tested on merit and not draw the ire of latent resentful groups that see the attempt at correcting social ills as an all-out attach on equality and liberty (while they themselves support inequality in policy and society).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

People overall aren't 'equal' when it comes to potential/mental capabilities.

When it comes down to 'race' though, trying to segregate one group from another is ridiculous. There are far more white people on welfare than black people, but you're 'racist' if you dare try to point that out.

Yes Paul, I've had this discussion before. Many many many many times.... Oddly enough with someone rather similar to yourself and who was so universally derided on here that they were banned from the site for propagating racism.

Yes, there are indeed more white people on welfare than black people. The big BUT there that you are ignoring is that as a percentage of the white population, the rate of poverty is much lower than that of the black population. This means - if you are black you are statistically more likely to experience poverty than if you are white.

Quite why that is, is open to some interpretation - you talk about potential - but is it something innate, does it have to do with the effort you put in, or perhaps does it have to do with how many socio-economic barriers are in your way?

Some people like to leave that discussion at the door - implying that racial minorities are born to be inferior. I don't believe that to be the case. I do believe that inequalities exist in society out of past injustices.

[SMOKE 1,426]

he's here.