Court: Chicago must hire 111 black firefighters

[Obama 2012 1,714]

All of this is about dumbing down society really.

As I've stated before (and been blasted for by some) when you try and treat everyone equally, you're going to get subpar results.

This is why we fall behind on science against the rest of the world now as well. We have the bright minds, they are just stuck in classes with the simpletons.

We're too afraid in this society today to 'discriminate' against someone when we really should be. If a person is brighter and smarter, then let them be brighter and smarter. Let them succeed. Someone posted a few weeks ago saying, 'well we don't want an elitist mentality..' - In all honesty, while an elitist mentality sucks, it beats dumbing down society. If someone is truly bright, is truly better, then let them be better. Don't hold them back because of jealousy or you're ASSUMPTION that they will become a #######.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't k now where you live, but I don't see anything too PC here. If the pass rate is set at 64% then you pass at 64%. The stupid was not hiring based on the given criteria in the first place - ie randomly selecting from everyone who passed. If they wanted a pass of 89% or better, that is how they should have set the test.

Agreed.

The first issue is whether the test is skewed against black candidates - I believe there is some evidence (at least based on past stories about this) to suggest that this is/was the case. The second (albeit separate) issue is the general divide between blacks and whites when it comes to academic achievement - and there is also some evidence to suggest that this is also the case. Of course the tendency when people start trapping off about political correctness is to not question why there is a disparity between blacks and whites on say High School graduation rates, or worse is the rather racist suggestion that somehow blacks are somehow inherently born to fail.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

All of this is about dumbing down society really.

As I've stated before (and been blasted for by some) when you try and treat everyone equally, you're going to get subpar results.

This is why we fall behind on science against the rest of the world now as well. We have the bright minds, they are just stuck in classes with the simpletons.

We're too afraid in this society today to 'discriminate' against someone when we really should be. If a person is brighter and smarter, then let them be brighter and smarter. Let them succeed. Someone posted a few weeks ago saying, 'well we don't want an elitist mentality..' - In all honesty, while an elitist mentality sucks, it beats dumbing down society. If someone is truly bright, is truly better, then let them be better. Don't hold them back because of jealousy or you're ASSUMPTION that they will become a #######.

Oh boy No Paul, it is not about the dumbing down of society. It's about the Fire Service in Chicago having an application process that is fair and transparent.

And what's with this "If a person is brighter and smarter, let them be brighter and smarter. Let them succeed". Are people not allowed to succeed if they demonstrate an ability and aptitude?

I think it's fairly well known that bright, smart people come from all backgrounds. The key limitation is that poorer students (who in the US tend to be black, because noone wants to connect the legacy of the US' racist policies of the past to the socio-economic conditions of today) tend to get shorter shrift when it comes to being able to succeed - whether that be through a lack of funding in the local education system, or social pressures from within their communities.

[Peikko 1,575]

Which is all fine and dandy IF having an 89% score results in better fire fighters than the pass rate of 64%. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THAT IS TRUE. NONE.

If a pass rate is set at 64%, that's the pass rate - not 89%. Everyone who passed should have been given the opportunity to be randomly selected including those white firefighters who did not achieve an 89% pass. That is what the ruling established. The stupid, once again, is the administrators who CHANGED THE RULES after the fact - that's why there was a court case.

It's just a result of a complete failure to understand what reality is as apposed to the 'sky is falling' interpretations. The sky is not falling, no one is trying to suggest that those who failed the test should have been considered, no one is trying to pretend everyone has an equal capacity to understand every subject.

Oh, and Paul, I hate to burst your bubble but the reason why science is not properly understood in the US has zip all to do with kids being sat next to simpletons in class rooms and everything to do with complete morons who insist that intelligent design is a credible alternate theory to evolution and insist that is taught as a branch of science.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Oh boy No Paul, it is not about the dumbing down of society. It's about the Fire Service in Chicago having an application process that is fair and transparent.

And what's with this "If a person is brighter and smarter, let them be brighter and smarter. Let them succeed". Are people not allowed to succeed if they demonstrate an ability and aptitude?

I think it's fairly well known that bright, smart people come from all backgrounds. The key limitation is that poorer students (who in the US tend to be black, because noone wants to connect the legacy of the US' racist policies of the past to the socio-economic conditions of today) tend to get shorter shrift when it comes to being able to succeed - whether that be through a lack of funding in the local education system, or social pressures from within their communities.

That's because yankee land is still pretty segregated. That's besides the point however.

The point is, if the brighest and the best are punished because others are not, then we are doomed as a society. The incident in Chicago, the incident in New Hampshire, they are just small examples of an overall symptom to a problem that runs much deeper than firefighter/civil service exams. It all goes hand in hand with the BS that is affirmative action and the likes.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The point is, if the brighest and the best are punished because others are not, then we are doomed as a society. The incident in Chicago, the incident in New Hampshire, they are just small examples of an overall symptom to a problem that runs much deeper than firefighter/civil service exams. It all goes hand in hand with the BS that is affirmative action and the likes.

It's bollocks Paul. This ruling provides no proof whatsoever that the "brightest and the best" are being "punished".

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

It's bollocks Paul. This ruling provides no proof whatsoever that the "brightest and the best" are being "punished".

I guess this is another example of two peoples separated by a common language. Perhaps Britain can lead by example, and hire the mediocre. Oh, that's right, they did. Isn't that the definition of the National Health Service?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess this is another example of two peoples separated by a common language. Perhaps Britain can lead by example, and hire the mediocre. Oh, that's right, they did. Isn't that the definition of the National Health Service?

No, not really Bill. Much as you might want that to be the case.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

It's bollocks Paul. This ruling provides no proof whatsoever that the "brightest and the best" are being "punished".

Absolutely it does. Did you not read the ruling/the story?

Saying that the city MUST hire 111 African-American firefighters who scored BELOW the threshold that the city used to hire people.

This is like hiring a medical student who never learned to put in an IV properly.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Absolutely it does. Did you not read the ruling/the story?

Saying that the city MUST hire 111 African-American firefighters who scored BELOW the threshold that the city used to hire people.

This is like hiring a medical student who never learned to put in an IV properly.

If the pass rate is set at one level, that's it. You don't keep changing the rules to disqualify people who meet the standard.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

If the pass rate is set at one level, that's it. You don't keep changing the rules to disqualify people who meet the standard.

Of course you do.

If you have such a high number of applicants, then you need a further standard to go by. Why would you not want the best of the best?

It's not the fault of the city that the African-Americans didn't have a large percentage of individuals who passed at a higher level.

It's not even like African-Americans are a large part of the population as a whole either. I know we like to act lie they are, but even the Hispanics dwarf the African-American community through and through.

This would be like the Asian-Americans getting up in arms about the same thing. Granted, the Asian-Americans would have worked hard to make sure they were in the top percentile, but that of course is due to a cultural difference as well...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Of course you do.

If you have such a high number of applicants, then you need a further standard to go by. Why would you not want the best of the best?

It's not the fault of the city that the African-Americans didn't have a large percentage of individuals who passed at a higher level.

It's not even like African-Americans are a large part of the population as a whole either. I know we like to act lie they are, but even the Hispanics dwarf the African-American community through and through.

This would be like the Asian-Americans getting up in arms about the same thing. Granted, the Asian-Americans would have worked hard to make sure they were in the top percentile, but that of course is due to a cultural difference as well...

Firstly - If the pass rate is 65% and over, why was the selection process not random for ALL the applicants who passed? That's not fair Paul.

Secondly - the assertion that it's not the fault of the city that African-Americans didn't have a large percentage of applicants who passed at the higher level is dubious. It's dubious because it ignores, say, an examination of the Chicago school system.

Thirdly - African Americans make up nearly 30% of the population of Chicago, so what exactly you're getting at with that statement is rather questionable.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Firstly - If the pass rate is 65% and over, why was the selection process not random for ALL the applicants who passed? That's not fair Paul.

Secondly - the assertion that it's not the fault of the city that African-Americans didn't have a large percentage of applicants who passed at the higher level is dubious. It's dubious because it ignores, say, an examination of the Chicago school system.

Thirdly - African Americans make up nearly 30% of the population of Chicago, so what exactly you're getting at with that statement is rather questionable.

And what sort of racist ####### are you trying to throw out there Duncan? I guess you think African Americans are inherently inferior and cannot compete unless we lower standards to include the barely passing.

[Vi-Jay 218]

The first issue is whether the test is skewed against black candidates - I believe there is some evidence (at least based on past stories about this) to suggest that this is/was the case.

Would you please, if you don't mind, provide some evidence?

What I have read, the only glitch in the test design was pass or fail.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Vi-Jay

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Firstly - If the pass rate is 65% and over, why was the selection process not random for ALL the applicants who passed? That's not fair Paul.

Secondly - the assertion that it's not the fault of the city that African-Americans didn't have a large percentage of applicants who passed at the higher level is dubious. It's dubious because it ignores, say, an examination of the Chicago school system.

Thirdly - African Americans make up nearly 30% of the population of Chicago, so what exactly you're getting at with that statement is rather questionable.

Firstly, life's not fair. Generally when they come up with a passing rate, it's based on the lowest they are willing to take and they don't expect a certain amount of applicants. However when you have a extremely large number of applicants, you need to secondard layer to go by. If you get 1,000 applicants when you only expected 100, it's fair to say that the city needed a higher standard at that point. Especially when you have a large number who pass above that 89 mark..... To expect otherwise just because a person is "African-American" is silly. It's the same BS where the white kid who has high SAT scores is overlooked because the black kid scored 500 less, but he'll meet the school's student quota. It's #######.

Secondly, who says all of the applicants even came from Chicago? Many people apply for police/fire jobs from long distances away.... What about the African-Americans that DID pass with 89 or higher. Are you going to discredit them for their hard work and effort just because a few others couldn't beef up their studying to pass the test and have the knowledge required?

Thirdly, 30% is fine and dandy, but there again, how many 'white' applicants were overlooked because they din't make an 89 or higher. Did anyone stop for one damn moment to think about that. Honestly? I can almost guarantee you there were a lot more white applicants who didn't score that high either. I don't see any cry of foul there though either. You won't see one. That's what makes this whole thing amusing.