Islamic Reformation

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Since the originals are not available for evaluation, how do you maintain your position that they were corrected by the Quran if they were different from the Quran to begin with, as you also state?

Wouldn't the revelations stating that they were corrupted and corrected by the Quran mean that they were the same as the Quran when they were revealed to Moses and Jesus?

You ask for the impossible. Islamic dogma is quite clear on this. If those previous revelations, in their original forms were still extant, there would be no need for the reminder (Quran). It's that simple.

3:78 And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.

5:13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun

5:15 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).

6:91 They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters) did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allah send down to any human being (by revelation)." Say (O Muhammad): "Who then sent down the Book which Musa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing much. And you (believers in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) were taught (through the Qur'an) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allah (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Another ignored question that would explain a lot, if answered, please:

Do you disagree with the One Message, One God concept? If so, please post the ayat that tell us that God revealed directives that contradicted and betrayed those in the Quran. If not, the rest is elemental.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm teaching a class soon, so I'm going to post my thoughts re the debate, so far, as I see it.

1. We agree that God revealed His Message to all the world.

2. We agree that Moses received the Torah, that Jesus received the Injeel and that Muhammad received the Quran (pbut).

3. We agree that each was a reminder of the Message sent since Adam, the first prophet of Isalm (pbuh).

4. We agree that the Message was transmitted in the languages of the Chosen who received and transmitted it.

5. We disagree about the similarities of the books.

6. IR5 says that because the Torah and Injeel were distorted over time, there is no way to discern the differences between them and the Quran. Ok.

7. I assert that since the Quran was sent to correct the distortions that corrupted the original Torah and Injeel, then the one book sent to correct more than one book must be a reproduction of the original Message, with particulars to address the issues of the Arab people, and that the different names for each book is only a product of the different languages of the people that received them. The Quran says they are the same, so why argue with that?

I believe that to be a fair summary of the debate, so far. Later, all.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sofiyya

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I'm teaching a class soon, so I'm going to post my thoughts re the debate, so far, as I see it.

1. We agree that God revealed His Message to all the world.

Revelation is an internal, personal experience.

2. We agree that Moses received the Torah, that Jesus received the Injeel and that Muhammad received the Quran (pbut).

For Christians, Jesus was the Messenger a New Covenant.

3. We agree that each was a reminder of the Message sent since Adam, the first prophet of Isalm (pbuh).

4. We agree that the Message was transmitted in the languages of the Chosen who received and transmitted it.

You, as a Muslim, seem to believe the Message was the same for all who received it. If that is the same for all Muslims, then their is no similarity here with the other Peoples of the Book

5. We disagree about the similarities of the books.

6. IR5 says that because the Torah and Injeel were distorted over time, there is no way to discern the differences between them and the Quran. Ok.

7. I assert that since the Quran was sent to correct the distortions that corrupted the original Torah and Injeel, then the one book sent to correct more than one book must be a reproduction of the original Message, with particulars to address the issues of the Arab people, and that the different names for each book is only a product of the different languages of the people that received them. The Quran says they are the same, so why argue with that?

What has been included, and not included, in the Christian Bible(s), and the Jewish Torah(s) took centuries to arrive at something close to their current forms. And they continue to be in some flux.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[Harsh_77 718]

Islam has been changing for centuries. The Prophet Muhammad, Jesus, Abraham, Moses, or any of its major prophets (pbut) wouldn't recognize it from what they taught.

There is no way to take the lead. Islam was designed to provide a personal relationship with God. Because it incorporates local cultural imperatives, Islam is not interpreted nor practiced the same all over the world. Islam in the US is not the same as that in the KSA, which is not the same in Pakistan, as it is in Indonesia, and so on.

Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Islam has no true center, no Pope. Trying to get a majority of Muslims - Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Ahmedi, Deobandi, etc., none of which existed before the death of the Prophet Muhammad - to follow one leader would be like herding cats.

Not gonna happen.

I would not agree with your first statement itself, islam is not willing to change and followers of islam still think whtever is written in their religious book is the whole truth.

If most followers of islam would accept that, then we would not have the problems we have around the world with followers of islam.

Since they are not willing to adapt to the new thoughts there is a conflict between them and rest of the world.

Reformation not happening, I agree with that coz for reformation to happen ppl need to question be it religious authority or any authority, unfortunately followers of islam think they can never question their religious leaders

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Since the originals are not available for evaluation, how do you maintain your position that they were corrected by the Quran if they were different from the Quran to begin with, as you also state? Actually HE states it, but the issue is only that the originals are not around. The Quran is the only revelation in Arabic, just that one point makes it different from any other revelation. It was meant for all of mankind, not just one group, that also makes it different. It is the only revelation sent to the Kedarites, etc. Taken to is logical conclusion, your argument means that you should be reading the Torah.

Wouldn't the revelations stating that they were corrupted and corrected by the Quran mean that they were the same as the Quran when they were revealed to Moses and Jesus? The message of Tawhid is the same but HE knows what HE said and HE doesn't state that it is identical. The gist is the same, though.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Your argument is very weak. Allah tells is that He has sent His Message since Adam, and that He has sent it in different languages. It has been a universal message from the beginning, not only since Muhammad received the revelations. If the message being in Arabic is enough to make it unique, then it is also unique in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

Muslims should know what's in the OT and the NT, and their differences and similarities to the Quran. It broadens their knowledge, and, since we are all ahl al kitab, our similarities are essential to dawah.

One God, One Message, One People. That is His Intent.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Your argument is very weak. Allah tells is that He has sent His Message since Adam, and that He has sent it in different languages. It has been a universal message from the beginning, not only since Muhammad received the revelations. If the message being in Arabic is enough to make it unique, then it is also unique in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

No, you seem to miss the point of my argument. Tergiversating only proves my point. The issue has to do with the documents but now you wish to foist the idea that the message is the same. That is what Samoray and myself have been arguing all along. The Quran is not the Torah, the idea of Tawhid is the same but the language would not be the same. You try to prove your argument by changing the question, we were talking about the texts and the words, not the message.

Muslims should know what's in the OT and the NT, and their differences and similarities to the Quran. It broadens their knowledge, and, since we are all ahl al kitab, our similarities are essential to dawah.

Everybody should read different faiths, it's good for you: whether you're a Canadian Roman Catholic or an Egyptian Muslim.

One God, One Message, One People. That is His Intent.

HIS intent is that we not kill each other and live in peace.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I'm teaching a class soon, so I'm going to post my thoughts re the debate, so far, as I see it.

1. We agree that God revealed His Message to all the world. YES.

2. We agree that Moses received the Torah, that Jesus received the Injeel and that Muhammad received the Quran (pbut). YES

3. We agree that each was a reminder of the Message sent since Adam, the first prophet of Isalm (pbuh). YES

4. We agree that the Message was transmitted in the languages of the Chosen who received and transmitted it. YES

5. We disagree about the similarities of the books. YES, no one can agree on that.

6. IR5 says that because the Torah and Injeel were distorted over time, there is no way to discern the differences between them and the Quran. HE says they were distorted. I'm having enough trouble trying to figure out the Codex Syriacus. If an original no longer exists then you can't determine what it originally contained, word for word. The best evidence rule doesn't apply to these matters so one can't say that the Quran is the same, in whole or in part to the original Torah.

7. I assert that since the Quran was sent to correct the distortions that corrupted the original Torah and Injeel, then the one book sent to correct more than one book must be a reproduction of the original Message, with particulars to address the issues of the Arab people, and that the different names for each book is only a product of the different languages of the people that received them. The Quran says they are the same, so why argue with that? You keep confusing the MESSAGE with the texts. It is what Samoray and myself keep repeating and now you seem to be agreeing with. The message in the original Torah and Injeel and the Quran would have been the same, the Quran says so. Submission and Unity of GOD. It doesn't say that the Quran is a photocopy of those other revelations, it has a slightly different mandate since it was sent to an Arab and not a Jew and it is the last revelation. The texts differ in language at least but we will never know the extet of any other differences since only the Quran remains in its original state.

I believe that to be a fair summary of the debate, so far. Later, all.

This is a debate? I tuned in to see the (John) Ibn-Sina/ Ibn-Rushd/Al-Ghazali Steel Cage Match, someone's going to be incoherent after this one.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's ok. You're not expected to know about the reforms if you're not studying Islam.

I would not agree with your first statement itself, islam is not willing to change and followers of islam still think whtever is written in their religious book is the whole truth.

If most followers of islam would accept that, then we would not have the problems we have around the world with followers of islam.

Since they are not willing to adapt to the new thoughts there is a conflict between them and rest of the world.

Reformation not happening, I agree with that coz for reformation to happen ppl need to question be it religious authority or any authority, unfortunately followers of islam think they can never question their religious leaders

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Revelation is an internal, personal experience.

You, as a Muslim, seem to believe the Message was the same for all who received it. If that is the same for all Muslims, then their is no similarity here with the other Peoples of the Book

What has been included, and not included, in the Christian Bible(s), and the Jewish Torah(s) took centuries to arrive at something close to their current forms. And they continue to be in some flux.

It is interesting that the divinity of Jesus and the trinity was already a settled part of Christian theology 300 years before Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation, yet the Quran refers to people who had the original knowledge, and who still existed in his time.

[Confused 2 94]

Quran 6:82-92:

Those who believe, and do not pollute their belief with idol worship, have deserved the perfect security, and they are truly guided.

Just wondering, if Quran is the word of God, why would your God be so insecure about idol worshipping. I mean, its God, not like he has to fear anything. And the Jihad and all that, what is that?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

This is a debate? I tuned in to see the (John) Ibn-Sina/ Ibn-Rushd/Al-Ghazali Steel Cage Match, someone's going to be incoherent after this one.

I haven't changed my position at all. The Message is the same, the text is one. If we are to believe in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran because they carry the same Message, but the originals are lost, we cannot prove that they aren't one. The Quran is only about 10% law, the rest is example. The law survived, that's what matters.

[Vi-Jay 218]

.... .... .... I'm OK now.

I really need to stop viewing this thread but I can't help it.

I'm becoming obsessed.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Vi-Jay

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I haven't changed my position at all. The Message is the same, the text is one. If we are to believe in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran because they carry the same Message, but the originals are lost, we cannot prove that they aren't one. The Quran is only about 10% law, the rest is example. The law survived, that's what matters.

Just curious, how do you know that the Quran is still the original message. It appears to have been passed down orally to a few people and then a final copy was written by a Caliph long after the death of Muhammed, which in someways is similar to how the New Testament was packaged.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sousuke