Islamic Reformation

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yes, we can eat halal beef, killed and prepared in accordance to the law. Like Jews, we are directed not to eat pork.

Are Muslims allowed to eat beef ? I know Jews can't eat pork (I never did understand that "Kosher" thing), and Hindi's cant eat anything...or just about.

PS - the kosher thing and the halal thing are directives from God but anthropologists have theorized that the prohibition stems from the fact that pigs are hard for nomads to herd due to their "cloven hooves" and that their meat keeps badly in the heat after slaughter.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sofiyya

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Hi, Tam! I don't believe any Muslim debating here is being lead astray. I see it as the kind of debate that is common between folks who have surface knowledge of Islam as a religion and folks who are more nuanced in their knowledge.

BTW, I'm starting a new Bible study this week, so I have a lot of appreciation for you trying to read the Quran.

That's not true, how you can make such a statement is beyondme. The Quran is not the Torah or thePsalms or the Gospels. It is areminder. That's not a question ofnuances just a question of fact. Nowherein the Quran does it make such a statement. It doesn't, because it isn't.

20:2 We have not sent down the Qur'an unto you (O Muhammad)to cause you distress,

20:3 But only as a Reminder to those who fear (Allah).

20:99 Thus We relateto you (O Muhammad ) some information of what happened before. And indeed Wehave given you from Us a Reminder (this Qur'an).

25:29. "He indeed led me astray from the Reminder (thisQur'an) after it had come to me. And Shaitan (Satan) is ever a deserter to manin the hour of need."

36:11. You can only warn him who follows the Reminder (theQur'an), and fears the Most Beneficent (Allah) unseen. Bear you to such one theglad tidings of forgiveness, and a generous reward (i.e. Paradise).

36:69. And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor isit meet for him. This is only a Reminder and a plain Qur'an.

43:44 And verily, this (the Qur'an) is indeed a Reminder foryou (O Muhammad) and your people (Quraish people, or your followers), and youwill be questioned (about it).

65:10 Allah hasprepared for them a severe torment. So fear Allah and keep your duty to Him, Omen of understanding who have believed! - Allah has indeed sent down to you aReminder (this Qur'an).

72:17 That We might try them thereby. And whosoever turnsaway from the Reminder of his Lord (i.e. this Qur'an, and practice not its lawsand orders), He will cause him to enter in a severe torment (i.e. Hell).

Note the specific language used, the Quran never states thatit is the exact same words or language revealed previously, the message is thesame, however.

2:89 And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (thisQur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them [theTaurat (Torah) and theInjeel (Gospel)], although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming ofMuhammad) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when therecame to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let theCurse of Allah be on the disbelievers.

2:97 Say (O Muhammad): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril(Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an)down to your heart by Allah's Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e.the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings forthe believers.

2:127 Those (who embraced Islam from Bani Israel) to whom Wegave the Book [the Taurat (Torah)] [or those (Muhammad's companions) to whom Wehave given the Book (the Qur'an)] recite it (i.e. obey its orders and followits teachings) as it should be recited (i.e. followed), they are the ones whobelieve therein. And whoso disbelieve in it (the Qur'an), those are they whoare the losers.

10:37 And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be producedby other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is aconfirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah),and the Injeel (Gospel)], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws,decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the 'Alamin(mankind, jinn, and all that exists).

12:111 Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men ofunderstanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of(Allah's existing Books) which were before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), theInjeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allah] and a detailed explanation ofeverything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.

57:16 Has not the time come for the hearts of those whobelieve (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) to be affected by Allah'sReminder (this Qur'an), and that which has been revealed of the truth, lestthey become as those who received the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and theInjeel (Gospel)] before (i.e. Jews and Christians), and the term was prolongedfor them and so their hearts were hardened? And many of them were Fasiqun (therebellious, the disobedient to Allah).

42:15 So unto this(religion of Islam alone and this Qur'an) then invite (people) (O Muhammad),and stand firm [on Islamic Monotheism by performing all that is ordained byAllah (good deeds), and by abstaining from all that is forbidden by Allah (sinsand evil deeds)], as you are commanded, and follow not their desires but say:"I believe in whatsoever Allah has sent down of the Book [all the holy Books,- this Qur'an and the Books of the old from the Taurat (Torah), or the Injeel(Gospel) or the Pages of Ibrahim (Abraham)] and I am commanded to do justiceamong you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. For us our deeds and for you yourdeeds. There is no dispute between us and you. Allah will assemble us (all),and to Him is the final return."

74:31 And We have set none but angels as guardians of theFire. And We have fixed their number (19) only as a trial for the disbelievers,in order that the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) may arrive at acertainty [that this Qur'an is the truth as it agrees with their Booksregarding the number (19) which is written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel)] and that the believers may increase in Faith (as this Qur'an is thetruth), and that no doubt may be left for the people of the Scripture and thebelievers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) and thedisbelievers may say: "What Allah intends by this (curious) example ?"Thus Allah leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none canknow the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a(warning) reminder to mankind.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Each messenger was sent to deliver the Message as a warner and a reminder. I have posted the ayat supporting my position. That is how I can make such a statement. And, yes, there are nuances that, if missing, tend to deflate the discourse, as is evident here.

What is the Torah? It is the recitation of God's directives, revealed in a specific time and place.

What is the Injeel? It is the recitation of God's directives, revealed in a specific time and place.

What is the Quran? It is the recitation of God's directives, revealed in a specific time and place.

Were there more times and places where the Message was revealed and it was not called the Torah, Injeel or Quran? We are told, yes, but they are not all revealed to us.

How many Gods are there between them all? Only one.

How many Messages does He have His prophets and messengers revealed to us? Only one.

Do you disagree with the One Message, One God concept? If so, please post the ayat that tell us that God revealed directives that contradicted and betrayed those in the Quran. If not, the rest is elemental.

That's not true, how you can make such a statement is beyondme. The Quran is not the Torah or thePsalms or the Gospels. It is areminder. That's not a question ofnuances just a question of fact. Nowherein the Quran does it make such a statement. It doesn't, because it isn't.

20:2 We have not sent down the Qur'an unto you (O Muhammad)to cause you distress,

20:3 But only as a Reminder to those who fear (Allah).

20:99 Thus We relateto you (O Muhammad ) some information of what happened before. And indeed Wehave given you from Us a Reminder (this Qur'an).

25:29. "He indeed led me astray from the Reminder (thisQur'an) after it had come to me. And Shaitan (Satan) is ever a deserter to manin the hour of need."

36:11. You can only warn him who follows the Reminder (theQur'an), and fears the Most Beneficent (Allah) unseen. Bear you to such one theglad tidings of forgiveness, and a generous reward (i.e. Paradise).

36:69. And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor isit meet for him. This is only a Reminder and a plain Qur'an.

43:44 And verily, this (the Qur'an) is indeed a Reminder foryou (O Muhammad) and your people (Quraish people, or your followers), and youwill be questioned (about it).

65:10 Allah hasprepared for them a severe torment. So fear Allah and keep your duty to Him, Omen of understanding who have believed! - Allah has indeed sent down to you aReminder (this Qur'an).

72:17 That We might try them thereby. And whosoever turnsaway from the Reminder of his Lord (i.e. this Qur'an, and practice not its lawsand orders), He will cause him to enter in a severe torment (i.e. Hell).

Note the specific language used, the Quran never states thatit is the exact same words or language revealed previously, the message is thesame, however.

2:89 And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (thisQur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them [theTaurat (Torah) and theInjeel (Gospel)], although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming ofMuhammad) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when therecame to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let theCurse of Allah be on the disbelievers.

2:97 Say (O Muhammad): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril(Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an)down to your heart by Allah's Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e.the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings forthe believers.

2:127 Those (who embraced Islam from Bani Israel) to whom Wegave the Book [the Taurat (Torah)] [or those (Muhammad's companions) to whom Wehave given the Book (the Qur'an)] recite it (i.e. obey its orders and followits teachings) as it should be recited (i.e. followed), they are the ones whobelieve therein. And whoso disbelieve in it (the Qur'an), those are they whoare the losers.

10:37 And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be producedby other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is aconfirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah),and the Injeel (Gospel)], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws,decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the 'Alamin(mankind, jinn, and all that exists).

12:111 Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men ofunderstanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of(Allah's existing Books) which were before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), theInjeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allah] and a detailed explanation ofeverything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.

57:16 Has not the time come for the hearts of those whobelieve (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) to be affected by Allah'sReminder (this Qur'an), and that which has been revealed of the truth, lestthey become as those who received the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and theInjeel (Gospel)] before (i.e. Jews and Christians), and the term was prolongedfor them and so their hearts were hardened? And many of them were Fasiqun (therebellious, the disobedient to Allah).

42:15 So unto this(religion of Islam alone and this Qur'an) then invite (people) (O Muhammad),and stand firm [on Islamic Monotheism by performing all that is ordained byAllah (good deeds), and by abstaining from all that is forbidden by Allah (sinsand evil deeds)], as you are commanded, and follow not their desires but say:"I believe in whatsoever Allah has sent down of the Book [all the holy Books,- this Qur'an and the Books of the old from the Taurat (Torah), or the Injeel(Gospel) or the Pages of Ibrahim (Abraham)] and I am commanded to do justiceamong you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. For us our deeds and for you yourdeeds. There is no dispute between us and you. Allah will assemble us (all),and to Him is the final return."

74:31 And We have set none but angels as guardians of theFire. And We have fixed their number (19) only as a trial for the disbelievers,in order that the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) may arrive at acertainty [that this Qur'an is the truth as it agrees with their Booksregarding the number (19) which is written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel)] and that the believers may increase in Faith (as this Qur'an is thetruth), and that no doubt may be left for the people of the Scripture and thebelievers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) and thedisbelievers may say: "What Allah intends by this (curious) example ?"Thus Allah leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none canknow the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a(warning) reminder to mankind.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

How does having different names for the same message negate the fact that it is the same message with different names? The bottom line is, the messengers and prophets of Islam all followed the guidance of God and only revealed the law of God. How that amounts to different books is lost on me. It is an assumption that different names given to the same law amounts to different books, but that would be wrong.

The Quran also says that it was revealed to correct the errors in those books that diverted from the one truth. One truth, one message, one book, albeit, with different names in different languages, as it would be expected, since they were revealed in different languages.

I'm confused by your argument. Are you saying that God's message and law changed from time and place? Al-Bakara 285 says the very same thing I have been saying. I'm not sure if you are arguing semantics and titles rather than the consistency of the Law and the Way of Allah, as He revealed it since Adam. Why assume that the message changed because the name of the book changed due to the various languages spoken when it was revealed over the centuries and across the world?

There you go again trying to evade and back away from your statements. The bottom line is Samoray and I caught you making a mistake about the Quran and the previous revelations being identical and you don't want to own up to it. Confused 2 called you out on your penchant for feigning ignorance, that appears to be your modus operandi.

IR5FORMUMSIE, on 08 May 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

You confuse the Quran with Islam. Islam is a faith founded on the directives in the Quran. The directives have been the same since Adam. The Quran isn't Islam, they are different entities but a Muslim follows the teachings in the Quran.

The Quran was transmitted via the Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) and no one else. That's Islamic dogma. Is it a different set of laws and conditions than those revealed to the earlier prophets? No. So, it wasn't new. It just got a new name. That's exactly what you've been railing against and sidesteps your previous responses, you always do this.

Islam is the same religion that Abraham and Moses and all other prophets followed (pbut). It was not founded by Muhammed (pbuh), it is submission to HIS WILL and Islamic Dogma teaches that it started with Adam (pbuh). Duh. Tell me something I don't know. How to be a Muslim for starters.

The Ahadith are examples and some of them would not and could not be revealed to earlier prophets since Moses would not have known about Jesus, for example. According to a lot of Islamic scholars,there is evidence that the Prophet Muhammad was revealed in the Torah and the Injeel, so there is no certainty that later prophets were not revealed to earlier prophets. It is far from determinative and thus is conjecture.

GOD would know about them but use of the term ahadith in relation THE ALMIGHTY is a bit odd. The Quran is the recitation of the word of GOD as well as a reminder of all the previous revelations. That's also Islamic dogma. Calling the Quran Allah's ahadith is not odd nor uncommon. It's unknown to you, but, so are a lot of things. Trying to foist 39:23 on your argument, it is an obscure term but I know not of which you speak nor does anyone else. All things are known to HIM so naturally there are many things unknown to me.

Nice to know that I've incurred your wrath, it must be tough to have people dissect your words for once. I can understand why you're so angry at Confused 2, Samoray and me.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

How does engaging in a civil discussion translate to me being angry? So, I've gone from being evasive to being angry, or maybe I'm still evasive.

I swear, I don't recognize my posts when you tell me what I supposedly said. Your rendition of me and what I say bears no relation to the reality. To put it bluntly, you make no sense.

Perhaps I need to have Chuck translate you for me. Maybe you are contributing more to this discussion than just insults, but it's hard to tell since personal insults are such a major part of your posts. Samoray and I can have an exchange without insulting each other, why is that such a character flaw for you?

There you go again trying to evade and back away from your statements. The bottom line is Samoray and I caught you making a mistake about the Quran and the previous revelations being identical and you don't want to own up to it. Confused 2 called you out on your penchant for feigning ignorance, that appears to be your modus operandi.

IR5FORMUMSIE, on 08 May 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

You confuse the Quran with Islam. Islam is a faith founded on the directives in the Quran. The directives have been the same since Adam. The Quran isn't Islam, they are different entities but a Muslim follows the teachings in the Quran.

The Quran was transmitted via the Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) and no one else. That's Islamic dogma. Is it a different set of laws and conditions than those revealed to the earlier prophets? No. So, it wasn't new. It just got a new name. That's exactly what you've been railing against and sidesteps your previous responses, you always do this.

Islam is the same religion that Abraham and Moses and all other prophets followed (pbut). It was not founded by Muhammed (pbuh), it is submission to HIS WILL and Islamic Dogma teaches that it started with Adam (pbuh). Duh. Tell me something I don't know. How to be a Muslim for starters.

The Ahadith are examples and some of them would not and could not be revealed to earlier prophets since Moses would not have known about Jesus, for example. According to a lot of Islamic scholars,there is evidence that the Prophet Muhammad was revealed in the Torah and the Injeel, so there is no certainty that later prophets were not revealed to earlier prophets. It is far from determinative and thus is conjecture.

GOD would know about them but use of the term ahadith in relation THE ALMIGHTY is a bit odd. The Quran is the recitation of the word of GOD as well as a reminder of all the previous revelations. That's also Islamic dogma. Calling the Quran Allah's ahadith is not odd nor uncommon. It's unknown to you, but, so are a lot of things. Trying to foist 39:23 on your argument, it is an obscure term but I know not of which you speak nor does anyone else. All things are known to HIM so naturally there are many things unknown to me.

Nice to know that I've incurred your wrath, it must be tough to have people dissect your words for once. I can understand why you're so angry at Confused 2, Samoray and me.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

BTW, neither you or Samoray have proven that the Torah, Injeel and Quran, as revealed by God to His prophets, are different BOOKS, only that they go by different NAMES.

Try to work on how they were different before they were corrected.

[웃 910]

[Sofiyya 1,687]

To those in the debate, are we actually discussing naskh without mentioning it as part of why we differ? If so, I am now mentioning it. What is your position on it in re the revelations over time?

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

How does engaging in a civil discussion translate to me being angry? So, I've gone from being evasive to being angry, or maybe I'm still evasive. You manage to be both evasive of the question and angry at me in your responses, they aren't mutually exclusive in your case.

I swear, I don't recognize my posts when you tell me what I supposedly said. Your rendition of me and what I say bears no relation to the reality. To put it bluntly, you make no sense. I am repeating what you post, if it makes no sense I suggest you take it up with yourself.

Perhaps I need to have Chuck translate you for me. Maybe you are contributing more to this discussion than just insults, but it's hard to tell since personal insults are such a major part of your posts. Samoray and I can have an exchange without insulting each other, why is that such a character flaw for you? You misspeak with alarming regularity and when confronted with the evidence you don't correct your errors you simply resort to hurling calumny after calumny at me in order to deflect attention from what you've posted.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Try to show some sense of responsibility to the readers.

1. BTW, neither you or Samoray have proven that the Torah, Injeel and Quran, as revealed by God to His prophets, are different BOOKS, only that they go by different NAMES.

Try to work on how they were different before they were corrected.

2. To those in the debate, are we actually discussing naskh without mentioning it as part of why we differ? If so, I am now mentioning it. What is your position on it in re the revelations over time?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My apologizes to Sousuke for the hijacking of this thread. I hope this discussion is at all helpful to you.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

BTW, neither you or Samoray have proven that the Torah, Injeel and Quran, as revealed by God to His prophets, are different BOOKS, only that they go by different NAMES.

Try to work on how they were different before they were corrected.

You ask for the impossible. Islamic dogma is quite clear on this. If those previous revelations, in their original forms were still extant, there would be no need for the reminder (Quran). It's that simple.

3:78 And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.

5:13 So, because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun

5:15 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).

6:91 They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters) did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allah send down to any human being (by revelation)." Say (O Muhammad): "Who then sent down the Book which Musa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing much. And you (believers in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) were taught (through the Qur'an) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allah (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions.

[sara..... 371]

One if the first things i was taught as a child was kindness toward Muslim and Non Muslim...being respectful to others and their opinions......im seeing a lot of anger, insults, and general rudeness ......is that really how we want Muslim and Non Muslim to see us?

I understand debates how ever i fail to see how these kind of replies are beneficial to anyone

Please for the sake of all keep everything at least respectful.......even if you dont agree

just my opinion

sara

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Try to show some sense of responsibility to the readers.

1. BTW, neither you or Samoray have proven that the Torah, Injeel and Quran, as revealed by God to His prophets, are different BOOKS, only that they go by different NAMES.

Try to work on how they were different before they were corrected.

2. To those in the debate, are we actually discussing naskh without mentioning it as part of why we differ? If so, I am now mentioning it. What is your position on it in re the revelations over time?

Back to the personal insults I see. I have responded to your question. With respect to your second point, you should know the the impetus for the Quran is that previous revelations were corrupted and a reminder was needed. That's it.

[Vi-Jay 218]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9_rNj4gndg