Islamic Reformation

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Ok about right now, there seems to be a bit of confusion between he said/she said this or that. Im reading pieces of the quran at the moment and come to chapter 4 vs 88. Where allah leads people astray. Just wondering if thats whats going on with most of you at the moment since ya'll are bickering so much on this thread.

And no, im not a muslim, just a christian w/a quran. I can follow along quite well w/my english translation when one (or some)is bickering back n forth w/verses.

[Samoray 165]

Let's start with the basics. Hebrew speaking people called their holy book the Torah, a Hebrew word meaning "instruction". They would not have called it the "Quran", an Arabic word. The NT was originally written down in several languages. Non-Arabic speaking people have not called their holy book by an Arabic name.

The name Quran is the Arabic term for the Message that was conveyed to all the World. It is not exclusive of the prior revelations, although there are particulars in it that deal with the times the early Arab ummah lived in.

However, the Message revealed since Adam is the same, and that is what makes the Quran holy to Muslims, not its name or the name used for the earlier revelations. The prophets of God did not write the Word, they merely revealed it and lived it for the purpose of passing it on to the rest of humanity. And, since the rest of the world was not limited to the Injeel, the Torah and the Quran, but learned from messengers unnamed in languages unnumbered, we can be sure that there are more names given in more languages for the Word that we do not know.

The revelation, the path is the same but where in the Quran did God say that the Quran is just the Arabic version of what was identically given to previous prophets word by word and it was called the Torah or Engeel.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

The revelation, the path is the same but where in the Quran did God say that the Quran is just the Arabic version of what was identically given to previous prophets word by word and it was called the Torah or Engeel.

It doesn't because it isn't.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Hi, Tam! I don't believe any Muslim debating here is being lead astray. I see it as the kind of debate that is common between folks who have surface knowledge of Islam as a religion and folks who are more nuanced in their knowledge.

BTW, I'm starting a new Bible study this week, so I have a lot of appreciation for you trying to read the Quran.

Ok about right now, there seems to be a bit of confusion between he said/she said this or that. Im reading pieces of the quran at the moment and come to chapter 4 vs 88. Where allah leads people astray. Just wondering if thats whats going on with most of you at the moment since ya'll are bickering so much on this thread.

And no, im not a muslim, just a christian w/a quran. I can follow along quite well w/my english translation when one (or some)is bickering back n forth w/verses.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The revelation, the path is the same but where in the Quran did God say that the Quran is just the Arabic version of what was identically given to previous prophets word by word and it was called the Torah or Engeel.

once again:

Quran 41:45:

Those who have rejected the Quran's proof when it came to them, have also rejected an Honorable book.

No falsehood could enter it, in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.

What is said to you is precisely what was said to the previous messengers. Your Lord possesses forgiveness, and He also possesses painful retribution.

If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."

We have given Moses the scripture and it was also disputed. If it were not for your Lord's predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, they harbor too many doubts.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The Quran instructs the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to consult those who have prior knowledge and expertise of the revealed scripture before him:

So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters. [Q 10:94]

But how is it that they (Jews) come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers. [5:43]

[Samoray 165]

once again:

Quran 41:45:

Those who have rejected the Quran's proof when it came to them, have also rejected an Honorable book.

No falsehood could enter it, in the past or in the future; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy.

What is said to you is precisely what was said to the previous messengers. Your Lord possesses forgiveness, and He also possesses painful retribution.

If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."

We have given Moses the scripture and it was also disputed. If it were not for your Lord's predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, they harbor too many doubts.

That doesn't back what you're saying, it is an assumption of since ( what is said to you is precisely what was said to the previous messengers ) then Quran is an identical book to what was sent to other prophets in other Eras.

The Quran clearly says

Altawba 111

Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through the Law, the Gospel and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Almaida 68

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Ala-Emran 3

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Torah (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

Al-Bakara 285

The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear and we obey; (We seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You confuse the Quran with Islam. Islam is a faith founded on the directives in the Quran. The directives have been the same since Adam.

The Quran was transmitted via the Archangel Gabriel (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) and no one else. That's Islamic dogma. Is it a different set of laws and conditions than those revealed to the earlier prophets? No. So, it wasn't new. It just got a new name.

Islam is the same religion that Abraham and Moses and all other prophets followed (pbut). It was not founded by Muhammed (pbuh), it is submission to HIS WILL and Islamic Dogma teaches that it started with Adam (pbuh). Duh. Tell me something I don't know.

The Ahadith are examples and some of them would not and could not be revealed to earlier prophets since Moses would not have known about Jesus, for example. According to a lot of Islamic scholars,there is evidence that the Prophet Muhammad was revealed in the Torah and the Injeel, so there is no certainty that later prophets were not revealed to earlier prophets.

GOD would know about them but use of the term ahadith in relation THE ALMIGHTY is a bit odd. The Quran is the recitation of the word of GOD as well as a reminder of all the previous revelations. That's also Islamic dogma. Calling the Quran Allah's ahadith is not odd nor uncommon. It's unknown to you, but, so are a lot of things.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

How does having different names for the same message negate the fact that it is the same message with different names? The bottom line is, the messengers and prophets of Islam all followed the guidance of God and only revealed the law of God. How that amounts to different books is lost on me. It is an assumption that different names given to the same law amounts to different books, but that would be wrong.

The Quran also says that it was revealed to correct the errors in those books that diverted from the one truth. One truth, one message, one book, albeit, with different names in different languages, as it would be expected, since they were revealed in different languages.

I'm confused by your argument. Are you saying that God's message and law changed from time and place? Al-Bakara 285 says the very same thing I have been saying. I'm not sure if you are arguing semantics and titles rather than the consistency of the Law and the Way of Allah, as He revealed it since Adam. Why assume that the message changed because the name of the book changed due to the various languages spoken when it was revealed over the centuries and across the world?

That doesn't back what you're saying, it is an assumption of since ( what is said to you is precisely what was said to the previous messengers ) then Quran is an identical book to what was sent to other prophets in other Eras.

The Quran clearly says

Altawba 111

Allah hath purchased of the Believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through the Law, the Gospel and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Almaida 68

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

Ala-Emran 3

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Torah (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

Al-Bakara 285

The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear and we obey; (We seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

[Sofiyya 1,687]

One more thing, Muslims, Jews and Christians are referred to in the Quran as ahl al kitab, people of the book. They are not referred to as people of the books, or people of the Torah, Injeel and Quran.

One Book, One People, One Message. That is what the Quran teaches us about what we share in common, and it tells us to follow the One Word to the truth. Not, the Three Words, revealed at different times, but, the One Word, revealed at different times.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Or a Pepsi Throwback. Those rock!

The halal shop we go to has Lebanese cokes and pepsis, that are just like Mexican cokes and pepsi throwbacks, only with this strange squiggly writing on the bottles...

I like them very much :-)

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The halal shop we go to has Lebanese cokes and pepsis, that are just like Mexican cokes and pepsi throwbacks, only with this strange squiggly writing on the bottles...

I like them very much :-)

I like those bottles with the "squiggly writing", too

[sandinista! 1,816]

Do you follow Mosaic dietary laws?

No cheeseburgers for Sofiyya? Or am I not understanding either?

How does having different names for the same message negate the fact that it is the same message with different names? The bottom line is, the messengers and prophets of Islam all followed the guidance of God and only revealed the law of God. How that amounts to different books is lost on me. It is an assumption that different names given to the same law amounts to different books, but that would be wrong.

The Quran also says that it was revealed to correct the errors in those books that diverted from the one truth. One truth, one message, one book, albeit, with different names in different languages, as it would be expected, since they were revealed in different languages.

I'm confused by your argument. Are you saying that God's message and law changed from time and place? Al-Bakara 285 says the very same thing I have been saying. I'm not sure if you are arguing semantics and titles rather than the consistency of the Law and the Way of Allah, as He revealed it since Adam. Why assume that the message changed because the name of the book changed due to the various languages spoken when it was revealed over the centuries and across the world?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Do you follow Mosaic dietary laws?

No cheeseburgers for Sofiyya? Or am I not understanding either?

5:5: Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you.

If I did, I would be in compliance with the above verse.

PS - According to ahadith, the law of stoning came from the Talmud, so even the Prophet is said to have used the prior revelations without fear of leaving the law of God. As I posted before, he was told to consult knowledgeable Christians and Jews as part of the revelations.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Sofiyya

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Are Muslims allowed to eat beef ? I know Jews can't eat pork (I never did understand that "Kosher" thing), and Hindi's cant eat anything...or just about.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Why_Me