Islamic Reformation

[Vi-Jay 218]

Rhetorical questions should use an exclamation point instead of a question mark when the intent is not clear.

ok, next time.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Good grief. More manufactured pathos and drama.

Really? Who's complaining about being persecuted and always does.

I made no mistake, nor did I dump on anyone. It's simplistic to attack someone when they don't give you the answer you want, or if they don't allow them to set you up for another attack. In this case, I'm damned if I do, or damned if I don't with some of you.

What do call your responses to me or Confused 2 in this very thread? It's not me you should be worried about.

I stand by my answers. They are absolutely on point. I didn't say a thing about all of Islam being practiced the same all over. In fact, those who are paying attention knows that I never say that because it's not true.

As usual you missed the greater implications of what you said. You glossed over it and unfortunately were called out over it.

I didn't dump on a person of another faith, although they have said much to dump all over me, and to encourage others to do the same.

Of course you did, no matter how you want to colour your response.

I haven't evaded anything worth addressing. I addressed the topic, then determined that the challenger to my answer is not capable of understanding my responses well enough to make our time spent in further discussion productive.

Yet here you are again responding.

The responses to me have been typical of cry baby reactions. So far, no one has responded directly to my information. There has been no response to my information about the early imams, about the diversity of opinion (it seems that no one noticed they and I don't object to that). There has been nothing in response to me that actually addressed my posts, just whining and complaining that I know nothing about Islam, don't answer questions, and dump on the Christian.

We weren't discussing the Sharia but I covered this in my first post before you went on a tangent and started backtracking and vituperating.

Wow, if you guys aren't just being obstinant, then you're being obtuse. Your ploys should be really transparent to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. When you can't keep up with the discussion, you whine, complain and throw around invalid accusations. If you can't understand the answers, don't blame the messenger. Get with the program and learn more for yourself so that you can keep up with me.

No insults here, not even one. Everyone is wrong but you are right.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Since the first prophet of Islam was Adam, and Arabic was the language of the last prophet of Islam, the Quran and ahadith were delivered in many languages prior to Arabic. Arabic is the last language of the Quran, not its original language.

WHAAAAAT? What was the original language of the Quran, French? German? Esperanto? The Quran's original language was, is, and always will be Arabic. If you are a Muslim then you should know this. Heck, even if you're not a Muslim then you probably know this.

[Confused 2 94]

I agree.

The problem is I am trying to keep up. Like I said explain in laymen terms Sofiyya so we can understand but she wants me to get my Phd. first to get to her level to even ask a question. So much for knowledge. I wonder how may scholars have said that to people who just asked a question?

" If you can't understand the answers, don't blame the messenger. Get with the program and learn more for yourself so that you can keep up with me."

Really??

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You have avoided answering the topic or my response yet. You continue to complain about something you can't do anything about - ME. I could complain that you refuse to direct my answer, but that would be a waste of time, considering your current trajectory.

So, to relive our shared frustration, I suggest that you do something that you do have some control over and direct your responses to either the OP or my information about Imâm al-Shâfi`î writings on bida, the history of fiqh methodology, the effects of maslaha mursala, the impact of fiqh on Muslim practice and understanding of Islam, and the diversity of thought between the madhahib.

While you whine about how I don't answer, you have so far failed to address any of the issues I raised in my answer to you; issues which are necessarily part of a substantive discussion of how bida is viewed in Islamic theology. I suggest that a glossary of fiqh terms may be helpful to you.

I'll check back to see if you still wish to engage me. I reposted my response below to refresh your memory, just in case you care to tackle it. I would appreciate original answers, not internet answers.

Thank you in advance.

Once again, you are negating the historical development of fiqh, and certainly misinterpreting my points to the extent that you attempt to "respectfully" bully me by calling takfir. Still, your position that every innovation in Islam is haraam is simplistic, narrow, and misinformed.

Those who believe as you do would be happy to see the intellectual evolution of Islam, as it spreads across the globe, stagnate further and wither from irrelevance to the lives of contemporary Muslims. That was never the intent of Allah, His prophets, nor the early imams, who devoted their lives to the collecting and developing methodologies that could take us into the future and remain true to the Word.

In point of fact, the position that all innovation is a bida is itself a bida from the perspective of the early imams. Imam Imâm al-Shâfi`î, as part of his development of the usl al fiqh, did a great deal to explain that there are good bidas and bad bidas. Innovation that conforms to the Sharia is approved, and innovations that do not conform to the Sharia are disapproved.

A major purpose of Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) is to determine the good and approved bida from the bad and disapproved bida, especially where social norms of a given society is concerned. While you say that cultural norms are absent in legal determinations, that has not the case since the advent of the early madhahib. The legal concept of maslaha mursala, considerations made in the public interest, allows for the use of reason to determine what is a good bida in matters of social interactions.

If there was no innovation in Islam, there would be no madhahib, no ikhtilaf al-fuqaha, no agreement between the fuqaha that there is validity in differing interpretations between the madhahib due to regional needs, and the limits of human reason and understanding in contrast to the infallibility of God.

Today's claim that prayers are only acceptable in Arabic is a bida. The mandate that head covering is fard is a bida. That one school gives a father the right to marry off daughters without their knowledge and permission while others do not cannot be explained without considering bida, good or bad.

Islam has changed because it is dynamic and not static. There would be no fiqh if there was no acceptance that Islam is flexible. Your rejection of this while accepting that fiqh is opinion is a demonstrable element of the contradiction in your position. Fiqh, by the authority it holds over the ummah, defines and redefines Islam to a great extent by emphasizing some pretexts over others.

While Islam is somewhat collective, our relationship with Him is personal and distinct. Islam has no leader other than God. Yes, trying to get the majority to follow any human would be like herding cats, because, despite our reputation as easily swayed by tyrants, despots and megalomaniacs bearing fatwas, overall, we don't bank on taqlid as much as it may seem.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

You continue to complain about something you can't do anything about - ME.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The Jews, the Christians, the Atheists and Secularist, the Munafiqeen, the whole of Kuffaar shall fall under the banner of the Anti-Christ, against Islam. It may also surprise you to know that all Christian Organizations are Masonic Institutions. About 60% of the Archbishops are Freemasons and secretly practice Devil-worship (see above mentioned books). If you want to know if a church is being used as a Masonic-Temple, then look on the stained glass windows for a Masonic symbol such as ‘a snake and a dagger, or a star of David ‘. If the church is in the shape of a Greek Temple, then it is definitely used for Masonic purposes. In Liverpool, the Roman Catholic cathedral has many Pyramids, Masonic symbols. There may be much fear about DAJJAL, but the final victory has been promised to the Muslims. Whereby every single Jew/Freemason shall be put to death. The whole Earth shall be cleansed of Kuffaar once and for all.

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/free-masons/dajjal.htm

Is this what Islam preaches???

Above is your question. As you know, I have been asked this repeatedly, and I, despite your protestations, have answered it repeatedly. I also know that you ask the question repeatedly because, as is your habit, you have made it clear, under the name Saddle Bronc, that you believe Islam to be a false faith and Muslims to be mislead.

Now, you are not an unintellegent person, so you know that you can find any kind of opinion on the web. Just finding it on the web doesn't mean that it holds water in any way or that it is true.

You have also made it clear that you don't believe my answers, that I am arrogant and not a reliable respondent. So, given what I know of your attitude toward me, Muslims and Islam, in addition, your insults toward me, why do you even care if I answer you. and why should I? I don't believe in rewarding bad behavior because doing so just encourages more bad behavior, and that's something I don't like to do.

If that's "dumping on the Christian", to some, so be it.

I agree.

The problem is I am trying to keep up. Like I said explain in laymen terms Sofiyya so we can understand but she wants me to get my Phd. first to get to her level to even ask a question. So much for knowledge. I wonder how may scholars have said that to people who just asked a question?

" If you can't understand the answers, don't blame the messenger. Get with the program and learn more for yourself so that you can keep up with me."

Really??

More evidence that you know only the basics.

WHAAAAAT? What was the original language of the Quran, French? German? Esperanto? The Quran's original language was, is, and always will be Arabic. If you are a Muslim then you should know this. Heck, even if you're not a Muslim then you probably know this.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

The refuge of the ignorant is to attack when they are unable to satisfactorily address the topic at hand.

My refuge is THE ALMIGHTY, not you Sofiyya. So sorry.

I am not the topic, but you can't handle the topic, so you need to make me the topic. That says more about what your failings than it does about me.

Was the topic paraphrasing A Few Good Men?

Reminder of what is the topic, which, btw, I did address. Your turn.

Thank you, Sofiyya, for that link. Just don't expect me to go off on a tangent like you do and complain about being persecuted.

Continue on to open mouth, and, again, change feet.

That's not the way you perform wudu.

[^_^ 5,021]

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm don't feel persecuted. Please cease with the diversions. You're looking pretty silly 'bout now.

Since you can't address the OP or the issues I raised to answer your complains, do you intend to continue to whine about me?

Just wondering . . . It's been two days on this, and I have other things to do if you aren't up to speed soon.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

Above is your question. As you know, I have been asked this repeatedly, and I, despite your protestations, have answered it repeatedly. I also know that you ask the question repeatedly because, as is your habit, you have made it clear, under the name Saddle Bronc, that you believe Islam to be a false faith and Muslims to be mislead.

Now, you are not an unintellegent person, so you know that you can find any kind of opinion on the web. Just finding it on the web doesn't mean that it holds water in any way or that it is true.

You have also made it clear that you don't believe my answers, that I am arrogant and not a reliable respondent. So, given what I know of your attitude toward me, Muslims and Islam, in addition, your insults toward me, why do you even care if I answer you. and why should I? I don't believe in rewarding bad behavior because doing so just encourages more bad behavior, and that's something I don't like to do.

If that's "dumping on the Christian", to some, so be it.

More evidence that you know only the basics.

I know what language the Quran was sent down in. It was in Arabic, the Ahadith (collection of hadiths ) were in Arabic but then again, you are the expert and everyone else is wrong.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

To Muslims, the Quran is the Word of God and the ahadith of God.

If the original language of the Quran is Arabic, then what did the earlier prophets of Islam teach? Abraham didn't speak Arabic. Did he not have the Quran transmitted to him in the language he spoke and taught in? How about Moses? In what language did he receive the Quran, and in which language did he transmit the Message?

Likewise, Jesus didn't speak Arabic. Did he make up the Word as he went along, or did he receive the ahadith of God from which he taught in the language they all understood?

The Quran itself says that prior Messengers have received the Word in other languages:

"We have not sent any Messenger except with the language of his people so he can make things clear to them. Allah misguides anyone He wills and guides anyone He wills. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise. [Qur'an 14:4]

To the Arabs, he said:

"We have made the Qur'an easy in your language so that they may take heed it." [Qur'an 44:58]

Islam was not revealed first to a prophet on the Arabian Pennisula. It was revealed there last, so the Quran you know is in Arabic. But, Islam is universal and it itself proclaims that it was revealed in other languages before Arabic, so who are we to doubt this? Is Allah wrong?

Please read your Quran and study Islamic history. It gives me no pleasure to repeatedly correct you in such a public forum.

I know what language the Quran was sent down in. It was in Arabic, the Ahadith (collection of hadiths ) were in Arabic but then again, you are the expert and everyone else is wrong.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I'm don't feel persecuted. Please cease with the diversions. You're looking pretty silly 'bout now.

Nothing like hiding one's shortcomings with scurrilous accusations against others.

Since you can't address the OP or the issues I raised to answer your complains, do you intend to continue to whine about me?

I've already answered the OP, you were unable to deal with the errors in your reasoning I raised and all you do is insult people. Are we having fun now?

Just wondering . . . It's been two days on this, and I have other things to do if you aren't up to speed soon.

Rewriting the Quran?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

which is not me.

Sorry you can't keep up. Maybe next time.