Islamic Reformation

[Samoray 165]

BTW, Samoray. I applaud you for taking on the Quran and the ahadith on your own. It's a very brave thing to do, and there is a basic purity about it that appealed to me in my youth. But, there is a cacophony of activity around the Quran, as there has always been, and it is a benefit, however chaotic.

Thanks,

It is easy actually not that hard to understand, however sometimes there are hard meanings, that's when i use a dictionary, but really the Quran is very consistent, the problems only lies in the translations, i think i would've addressed all of my points easier if we were speaking Arabic.

God Bless You

[Samoray 165]

Can we conclude that the Quran is not the Torah and Injeel? Not really. Nothing you posted is convincing that it's not, so it's clear that just posting verses is not enough to prove a point, nor is simply reading the Quran enough to qualify one to argue it substantially.

IR5 doesn't agree that the earlier prophets knew about the later prophets.

Do you know how many sharias there are in Islam?

Yeah we can, if no where in the Quran did God mention that the Quran is the Torah or the Engeel, and he talks about the Torah and the Engeel being separate wahey on other prophets then yes therefore the Quran is not the Torah or the Engeel.

The Sharia that i believe in is the Sharia that exists in the Quran and the Ahadith, and if it is not in both of them then i will go look for an opinion from a scholar, who he may or may not be correct cause in the end he is a human being.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thanks,

It is easy actually not that hard to understand, however sometimes there are hard meanings, that's when i use a dictionary, but really the Quran is very consistent, the problems only lies in the translations, i think i would've addressed all of my points easier if we were speaking Arabic.

God Bless You

Funny you should mention speaking Arabic. I was very tempted to launch into it earlier myself when IR5 and I were going 'round and 'round, but considering how frustrated some of our audience was already, it was best not to.

The Quran isn't so hard to understand, but it's hard to discuss because there is more than one understanding. Just as people read into our posts from their own understanding, so do people read into holy books what they need to see. Some, like myself, gravitate to the legalisms in there, so we get frustrated with the dreamy, Islam is what is in your heart versions of the faith. I see its beauty and its power, but it not only a message, it's a tool that we need to use carefully and to the benefit of all, at God's pleasure.

God bless you, too, brother.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Yeah we can, if no where in the Quran did God mention that the Quran is the Torah or the Engeel, and he talks about the Torah and the Engeel being separate wahey on other prophets then yes therefore the Quran is not the Torah or the Engeel.

The Sharia that i believe in is the Sharia that exists in the Quran and the Ahadith, and if it is not in both of them then i will go look for an opinion from a scholar, who he may or may not be correct cause in the end he is a human being.

We will have to agree to disagree about the books.

Not to start another debate, as it's late in the day, but there is more than one sharia. As you say, we are only human and it is from human understanding that the sharia(s) derive. That was a concept that took a while to congeal in my mind lol.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Since the topic is Islamic reformation, I am reminded that one change that occurred in the 16th Century was the study and access to the Bible. Generally, lay people were not encouraged to study the Bible. In fact in some instances it was forbidden. Obviously it was more than just the reformation itself that changed this view, the printing press also had an impact.

From some of the recent discussion, is the Quran hard to study? Is it not recommended to study it without help? The impression that I am getting, is that the only ones who can truly understand its text are scholars who devote their entire time to it. Is this incorrect?

[Samoray 165]

Since the topic is Islamic reformation, I am reminded that one change that occurred in the 16th Century was the study and access to the Bible. Generally, lay people were not encouraged to study the Bible. In fact in some instances it was forbidden. Obviously it was more than just the reformation itself that changed this view, the printing press also had an impact.

From some of the recent discussion, is the Quran hard to study? Is it not recommended to study it without help? The impression that I am getting, is that the only ones who can truly understand its text are scholars who devote their entire time to it. Is this incorrect?

That's a good question actually, the difference between a regular muslim and a scholar is that the scholar have read the Quran and the Hadith and he should know them by heart, so his opinions are mainly based on these two sources, there is nothing else that he can invent, but an example drinking wine is not right according to the Quran cause it impairs your judgment, but at the time of the Prophet there was no whiskey, but whiskey falls into the same category of wine as it impairs your judgment, so it is common sense that weed is the same or any other drug even though it is not clearly mentioned in the Quran or the Haith. that's it.

Also you hear a scholar after giving an advice or an opinion about a certain subject, He almost always say and God Knows Better cause there is a slight probability that he might be wrong but as far as his knowledge is, this is what he can offer.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Since the topic is Islamic reformation, I am reminded that one change that occurred in the 16th Century was the study and access to the Bible. Generally, lay people were not encouraged to study the Bible. In fact in some instances it was forbidden. Obviously it was more than just the reformation itself that changed this view, the printing press also had an impact.

From some of the recent discussion, is the Quran hard to study? Is it not recommended to study it without help? The impression that I am getting, is that the only ones who can truly understand its text are scholars who devote their entire time to it. Is this incorrect?

I devoted my life to it's study, but even novices believe they know more, so the respect for scholarship is conditional. There are differing views about how to study. Some prefer self-study, but the recommended way is to study under legitimate scholars. That's the traditional way. There are advantages to both, depending on your reasons for study. Independent thinking is fostered by self-study, but that can lead one astray. Collective learning can provoke blind following.

The Quran is easy except when it's not. If you can't read classical Arabic, you must use a proper translation. Then, there is the complement of the Sunnah, which complicates things more. And, it's difficult to understand either without historical context; the Quran is not in chronological order. Personally, I recommend reliable and flexible help from a learned person who follows the tradition that allows for questioning and diversity of opinion, someone who has the patience to guide, not lead.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I accept all the verses you have mentioned earlier but the problem is they are talking about the message, which is One God which we agree about, but you haven't brought any verses that said the Quran is the Torah or the Engeel.

I understand that Islam is not only for Arabs, there are more Muslims in the world than Arabs. i also understand that all prophets had the same message of guiding people to One God, I also understand that every prophet had a miracle, one of the miracles of our prophet Mohamed PBUH is the Quran, but i think IR5 agrees with us, i thought he did.

And you'd be right to think that.

[Samoray 165]

I devoted my life to it's study, but even novices believe they know more, so the respect for scholarship is conditional.

Scholars are great only for their studies, and they know more because they read more, but they're not ultimately, unconditionally perfect by nature nor they are prophets sent from God

I wonder after all your studies, you have memorized the whole Quran ? just curious

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I devoted my life to it's study, but even novices believe they know more, so the respect for scholarship is conditional. There are differing views about how to study. Some prefer self-study, but the recommended way is to study under legitimate scholars. That's the traditional way. There are advantages to both, depending on your reasons for study. Independent thinking is fostered by self-study, but that can lead one astray. Collective learning can provoke blind following.

The Quran is easy except when it's not. If you can't read classical Arabic, you must use a proper translation. Then, there is the complement of the Sunnah, which complicates things more. And, it's difficult to understand either without historical context; the Quran is not in chronological order. Personally, I recommend reliable and flexible help from a learned person who follows the tradition that allows for questioning and diversity of opinion, someone who has the patience to guide, not lead.

Is there a translation that you recommend?

[Samoray 165]

And you'd be right to think that.

Great cause Sofiyya kinda confused me back and forth

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Great cause Sofiyya kinda confused me back and forth

Then her mission was successful.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I agree with you that the later prophets were revealed to the earlier prophets. IR5 doesn't agree with us.

If the Quran is so clear that all we need to do is read the verses, then why is my proof during our ongoing debate, supported by verses, not accepted by you?

50 years of formal study has armed me to understand when it is being corrupted. It's opened my mind to critical thinking, something too many Muslims shun. It's let me know that the religion is not one dependent on Arab norms and practice. It's allowed me the ability to separate mandates from the conditional, and equipped me to argue before jurists many times to save a life and prevent an injustice.

But, with Allah, all things are possible, so you don't really know. You just think so.

I made no comment one way or another. During the Night Journey, Muhammed (pbuh) met previous prophets but I made no comment about Moses (pbuh) knowing about Jesus (pbuh) or Muhammed (pbuh) during his lifetime.