UBL IS DEAD!!!

[Zero Sum 305]

Equating justice with revenge and closure with retribution is a slippery path. There is a quote floating around that is attributed to Martin Luther King, Jr., but I think it is actually an anonymous quote - but for me, this gets to the core if this issue. I am not sad that Bin Laden is dead, and I also don't think that he ever would have allowed US troops to capture him alive - but celebrating his death in the manner it has been celebrated is saddening and scary.

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

I think that excess celebration is a bit psychotic to be honest. While our human nature might have a historical drive to express ourselves in joy at the demise of an enemy, going all-out frat in a weird nationalistic fervor is pretty weird. Its important not to equate revenge, closure, or retribution for fear of creating a psychosis- but for many its already way too late.

[Captain Oates 911]

I think that excess celebration is a bit psychotic to be honest. While our human nature might have a historical drive to express ourselves in joy at the demise of an enemy, going all-out frat in a weird nationalistic fervor is pretty weird. Its important not to equate revenge, closure, or retribution for fear of creating a psychosis- but for many its already way too late.

I have always distinguished between patriotism and nationalism but what percentage of the population could make that distinction if asked ?

It seems to affect all countries in a very similar way so it must be a very primitive instinct

When I watch a David Attenborough film showing a group of chimpanzees gathering to make war on another group (The group size corresponds to a company size in the army), they bend their knees outwards and jump up and down making all the same gestures as an excited football crowd or a mass of rioters or 'team' celebrators. The savagery the chimps then inflict is boundless.

The women in the crowds seemed at least as vengeful and hateful and vindictive as the men so there is more evidence that women are no different to men. I already knew that women are as capable of violence as men despite what is the common perception.

eg the women of Crete who used table legs to smash in the skulls of young German paratroopers as they landed

All in all, watching telly is an interesting anthropological exercise this week

Edited May 3, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

Osama, if the O is incorrect or offensive I prefer it, was a duesche of the highest rank.

Do carry on!

since he was the target of the raid, would he then be a "duesche" mark?

[peejay 327]

I did not dance, shout or sing when I learned UBL was dead but, I was happy and felt some satisfaction and pride as an American.

I don't have a negative opinion 'bout those that did celebrate in the streets. I imagine the people living in New York have been affected by UBL, on a much deeper emotional and intellectual level than I. I imagine the troops after learning that UBL was dead, felt an exhilirating sense of team success.

I felt happy for those that celebrated 'cause I thought they had finally been given some relief and closure.

I say, let them celebrate the moment and then let us all brace ourselves tommorrow.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on my fellow Americans. I just think this sort of gaiety I criticised is tacky and tasteless.

For the most part I support the death penalty, but it has always disgusted me when mobs showed up to heckle and celebrate outside the prison before the execution. Some people need killing, but show a little decorum and class when it is done.

[Vi-Jay 218]

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on my fellow Americans. I just think this sort of gaiety I criticised is tacky and tasteless.

For the most part I support the death penalty, but it has always disgusted me when mobs showed up to heckle and celebrate outside the prison before the execution. Some people need killing, but show a little decorum and class when it is done.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Vi-Jay

[Captain Oates 911]

since he was the target of the raid, would he then be a "duesche" mark?

anti German sentiment eh ? (joke)

I don't know what these shower accessories are that Americans so often refer to ..

Yet more cultural ignorance on my part

These so called christians who kill abortion doctors are EXACTLY the same as Bin Laden and are motivated by extreme religiosity as was Bin Laden and are prepared to kill because they truly believe they are justified and it is right and god wants it to happen

The SEALs believed they were justified for different reasons

All this killing because everyone believes they are truly justified

The first step in ending that situation is for people to moderate the violence and depravity and lack of control in their speech and thoughts in every day life...

I won't hold my breath waiting for that to start. One read of the internet generally, shows a whole generation coming on who's sense of what is proper is ... under-developed ?

Just different perhaps - it's not ok to be anti-gay but the graphic nature of their thoughts and expressions on other subjects are without bounds. There are no limits really and a certain kind of person will take advantage of that to outpour the dirtiest and most violent thoughts into the public space.

The more easily-led will believe that this is acceptable and have their decency threshold lowered.

Due to that, I am not an optimist that society will get 'nicer'

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I just wish they had stuffed his mouth with pickled pigs feet before the sent him off to sleep with the fishes.

He was dead, so he wouldn't have noticed the pig's feet. He was a mass murderer, so he wasn't much of a Muslim either.

[Nina~ 431]

anti German sentiment eh ? (joke)

I don't know what these shower accessories are that Americans so often refer to ..

Yet more cultural ignorance on my part

These so called christians who kill abortion doctors are EXACTLY the same as Bin Laden and are motivated by extreme religiosity as was Bin Laden and are prepared to kill because they truly believe they are justified and it is right and god wants it to happen

The SEALs believed they were justified for different reasons

All this killing because everyone believes they are truly justified

The first step in ending that situation is for people to moderate the violence and depravity and lack of control in their speech and thoughts in every day life...

I won't hold my breath waiting for that to start. One read of the internet generally, shows a whole generation coming on who's sense of what is proper is ... under-developed ?

Just different perhaps - it's not ok to be anti-gay but the graphic nature of their thoughts and expressions on other subjects are without bounds. There are no limits really and a certain kind of person will take advantage of that to outpour the dirtiest and most violent thoughts into the public space.

The more easily-led will believe that this is acceptable and have their decency threshold lowered.

Due to that, I am not an optimist that society will get 'nicer'

People have been using god/religious texts to justify to do anything that they knew would be unacceptable otherwise.. Nothing new about that. However I doubt that suppressing their speech & thoughts - moderate the violence and depravity and lack of control in their speech and thoughts in every day life...- as you put it, is never going to make any difference. Bad people are going to do bad things, and there will always be some sheep who condones their actions just because they said "Jesus/Allah told me to do it"... chalk it up to human nature.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

As Mohammed's birth took place just under 600 years

AFTER Jesus was born, I think an Islamic burial would

probably be out of the question...

FYI: Jewish burial rituals have a lot in common with Muslim burial rituals.

[Captain Oates 911]

People have been using god/religious texts to justify to do anything that they knew would be unacceptable otherwise.. Nothing new about that. However I doubt that suppressing their speech & thoughts - moderate the violence and depravity and lack of control in their speech and thoughts in every day life...- as you put it, is never going to make any difference. Bad people are going to do bad things, and there will always be some sheep who condones their actions just because they said "Jesus/Allah told me to do it"... chalk it up to human nature.

Yes I agree that basic human nature includes a lot of nasty stuff and evolution does not seem to be progressing towards reducing that

All we can do while we are waiting another 6 million years (or another 6,000 if you live in the South), is to try and steer 'decency' in the right direction.

There is such a thing as 'de-sensitizing'. Back in the early 70's I was Coroner's Officer for a couple of years and I used to get the bodies out of the fridge and be involved in the post mortem examinations. One morning I was waiting for the pathologist and I suddenly realised I was eating my cheese sandwich off the dead persons chest. The thought crossed my mind that I was becoming 'de-sensitized'

I reckon some of the language on the internet de-sensitizes people. How else could such a large number of persons feel free to say the most disgusting things ?

They don't talk like that at work or in front of their parents or children (I hope), so why do they do it anonymously on the internet ? It's their dirty little secret I suppose

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

There is such a thing as 'de-sensitizing'. Back in the early 70's I was Coroner's Officer for a couple of years and I used to get the bodies out of the fridge and be involved in the post mortem examinations. One morning I was waiting for the pathologist and I suddenly realised I was eating my cheese sandwich off the dead persons chest. The thought crossed my mind that I was becoming 'de-sensitized'

So you got crumbs on him/her?

Edited May 3, 2011 by Sousuke

[thongd4me 69]

FYI: Jewish burial rituals have a lot in common with Muslim burial rituals.

This is absolutely true, but in any case Jesus was not an undertaker,

but a religious figure known for forgiveness and compassion.

According to some interpretations, Jesus was a Muslim.

Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God. Islam rejects the Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind.

Nevertheless, I was responding to the incongruity of the original comment.

Equally incongruous: "how would a caveman buried Bin Laden?"

[Captain Oates 911]

So you got crumbs on him/her?

In ! crushed by an eight ton Archimedean screw

He had 3 wives in different countries and they were as surprised as him at his death

[Captain Oates 911]

This is absolutely true, but in any case Jesus was not an undertaker,

but a religious figure known for forgiveness and compassion.

According to some interpretations, Jesus was a Muslim.

Nevertheless, I was responding to the incongruity of the original comment.

Equally incongruous: "how would a caveman buried Bin Laden?"

Are you suggesting we should have eaten him ? They would in Borneo not so long since.

This re-cycling thing is getting out of hand

[thongd4me 69]

Are you suggesting we should have eaten him ? They would in Borneo not so long since.

This re-cycling thing is getting out of hand

Your suggestion, not mine; my point was "who cares?"