Moroccans

[mahboula 11]

The race of a nationality is determined by international agreements. Many who are in no way White are classified as White by the U.S. government because that's what their government has requested. I've started learning to teach immigration and citizenship courses and it's ridiculous how often an applicant who is obviously not White is told that's what they should check That's says more about the racism of world governments than it does about reality.

Whats wrong with being part black? I would rather be marked as black and with an IQ than be identified with trailer trash and the Jerry Springer show.

I think that if you have to jump up and down to identify yourself as not being part of a particular race, than racism is coursing through your veins at a pace stronger than you would admit

As a side note, I always tell people my daughter is African. Its what makes Moroccans particularly beautiful, that mix of arab, jewish, berber and black that many are. There is no pure Moroccan race.. thats a bunch of bunk. They are a mix of everything...and to say that there are not black moroccans is a total joke.

HIT I think you must be misreading Sofiyya's post. Where did she say there was something wrong with being part black?

I would rather be marked as black and with an IQ than be identified with trailer trash and the Jerry Springer show.

This comment is just ridiculous.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

HIT I think you must be misreading Sofiyya's post. Where did she say there was something wrong with being part black?

This comment is just ridiculous.

Well not any more ridiculous than having to defend your boyfriend or husbands ethnic background to an ignorant relative. Read the first post. I cannot imagine why it really even matters what race a perspective spouse is. Brains, IQ and educational background seem like a lot bigger priority.

I was agreeing with her post not misreading it. I think shes absolutely right.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Hanging in there

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

The race of a nationality is determined by international agreements. Many who are in no way White are classified as White by the U.S. government because that's what their government has requested. I've started learning to teach immigration and citizenship courses and it's ridiculous how often an applicant who is obviously not White is told that's what they should check That's says more about the racism of world governments than it does about reality.

I agree with this post...I dont disagree with it by the way.. What do you think about this whiteness blackness conversation Soffiya? Do you think there is racism in morocco as far as whiteness and blackness? I d love to hear your answer

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

HIT I think you must be misreading Sofiyya's post. Where did she say there was something wrong with being part black?

This comment is just ridiculous.

And nothing else in this posting que is ridiculous? Having to defend the race of someone you are choosing to date or explain it isnt? Why even enter into the relationship if you are not prepared to accept the shock of relatives? In this day and age, I think religion is going to be much more of an issue than race. If someone was a very dark greek lets say there would be perhaps alot less shock. I think its more about culture and religion than color

[sandinista! 1,816]

I don't doubt mahboula, like many others, finds the entire thread ridiculous. But yr comment there still managed to stand out, in a thread full of some real doozies. It stands out because you think it sounds all progressive and forward thinking, when that comment was anything but. It was just weird and condescending, and all around icky.

[mahboula 11]

Ok I misunderstood. I did not see that you were agreeing with Sofiyya.

I still do not understand this comment that you made: "I would rather be marked as black and with an IQ than be identified with trailer trash and the Jerry Springer show."

[mahboula 11]

I don't doubt mahboula, like many others, finds the entire thread ridiculous. But yr comment there still managed to stand out, in a thread full of some real doozies. It stands out because you think it sounds all progressive and forward thinking, when that comment was anything but. It was just weird and condescending, and all around icky.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I don't doubt mahboula, like many others, finds the entire thread ridiculous. But yr comment there still managed to stand out, in a thread full of some real doozies. It stands out because you think it sounds all progressive and forward thinking, when that comment was anything but. It was just weird and condescending, and all around icky.

I dont think it sounds progressive or foward thinking. I do think that the ickiness started the minute people started insisting that Moroccans were white and not black and that someone considering marrying someone or already married to someone has to defend race to a relative.

I think there is a lot more icky in this thread than my comment..And if you didnt like the thread, why did you wait till I spoke to talk about it?

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I don't doubt mahboula, like many others, finds the entire thread ridiculous. But yr comment there still managed to stand out, in a thread full of some real doozies. It stands out because you think it sounds all progressive and forward thinking, when that comment was anything but. It was just weird and condescending, and all around icky.

Here is a great article discussing the subject of being black in Morocco

A taboo topic

In Morocco, as elsewhere in the Maghreb, there is a real problem of racism against blacks. "Black Moroccan" or "black Africans", they nevertheless remain the descendants of slaves. Called "hartani" literally "free man of second rank or more violently" aâzi "might be translated as" dirty negro ", Black Morocco, they are students, migrants, and other sub-Saharan are victims of daily discrimination from the cherifian people .

Moroccans are racists against the blacks. In Morocco, as elsewhere in the Maghreb, the black people has always been discriminated against. Persecution, abuse, insults, abuse ... are the daily lot of people of color. To better understand this phenomenon, Afrik.com collected evidence of associations of students of African and Moroccan citizens.

A racist different

According to Pierre Vermeren, a historian of North African societies, we must differentiate the degree of racism against a Moroccan Black and Black abroad. "There are different categories of blacks in Morocco. The first concerns the black people who are endogenous mixed with the Moroccan population and falling straight slaves. The second is that of black people in the South.

They are concentrated in oases entirely populated by black Africans, but are in no way, mixed with Berbers or Arabs. The third affects mainly Africans from Senegal, who were making their pilgrimage in the medina of Fez. The final class, students and migrants is the one most affected by racism. "

..

For most Moroccans, trial anti-blackness is reflected through their behavior to outsiders not connected to black people on the one hand, and (or) non-Muslims on the other. It would be a profound sense of superiority which goes back to antiquity. The black slaves in Morocco, were counted in hundreds of thousands at the time. They were certain the body Moroccan military, the civil guard, while others perform tasks attributed to them under the reign of Ahmed El Mansour Eddahbi or of Moulay Ismail in the 16th and 17th century.

Today, "Slavery was never formally abolished. The French protectorate in the early 20th century, has just banned the practice. But the initiative never came to Moroccan society itself, "says the historian who refers us to the work of Mohammed Ennaji, soldiers, slaves and concubines, which he illustrates this period.

"It is rare for a Moroccan marries a Black"

For Nadia, a Moroccan woman aged fifty years, it is not simply a racial problem. "It's deeper than that. It is a sentiment that has been perpetuated from generation to generation. It is extremely rare, for example, a Moroccan marries a Black, a Muslim. This does not happen. The only case which is, strictly speaking, 'tolerated' is when the man was not too Negroid features. There are fears the famous 'that will say on' family and / or the environment. The woman will often hear his mother near him or say he is 'good enough Moroccans not to pick up a Black'. "

In the words of Nadia, the feeling is widespread in Morocco, and elsewhere in the Maghreb. "Even for a man who is generally more 'free' as it is he who sends his name and his religion to his children, marry a woman of color is not accepted by his entourage. And it's even harder when he's not one or a non-Muslim. Mixed marriages are already very rare in our culture, then with black non-Moroccan, not Muslims, it is never acceptable. Whether my generation, the generation of my father or my children. "

Being Black in Morocco: a nightmare for students and immigrants

"The most violent racism expressed against black students. In the city of Rabat International University, is quite visible. Students come from both sides of the continent to pursue their studies, are grouped together, see isolated. They do not share the same premises as the students 'white' Moroccan. It's very community, "says Hervé Baldagai, Secretary General of the CESAM (Confederation of pupils, students and trainees African foreigners in Morocco).

"The conditions for blacks are very difficult, insults are regular. We are treated in Arab 'niggers', we were ordered to leave the country, we are treated to 'AIDS carriers', we throw stones. It's unbearable. We encounter problems in government, as to obtain a student card or to the Exchange.

The black students return to their countries after their studies

"In Morocco, we can not talk too much. Recently, the channel 2M organized a debate on the subject. The problem is that the diffusion, some passages were censored, including the passages where there were complaints. We talk among ourselves assaults in the streets but that's all. Anyway, what do you think happens? In general, at the end of their studies, black students return to their country of origin. Except those from war-torn countries like Sierra Leone, Togo, Ivory Coast, who are forced to stay in Morocco.

"Generally, we do not explain the attitude of some Moroccans. I found myself that some factors must be considered. The first is religious. The Black Muslims are less persecuted than blacks Christians or animists. The second factor is due to a cultural misunderstanding. The Moroccan media always show the negative aspects of sub-Saharan Africa (AIDS, wars ...), and Moroccans end up being afraid of us and therefore we reject. Third questioned: education. It is also common to hear children and adults deal with these people "hartani (junior men) or aazi (negro). The young children before we insult their parents unless they do not correct or scold them. Finally, there is, in my opinion, one last reason. It is political. Since 1984, Morocco is no longer part of the African Union. This withdrawal is due to the fact that some African countries like Cameroon or South Africa have challenged the sovereignty of Morocco on Western Sahara, "said Secretary General of the CESAM.

"A Black non-Muslim is viewed differently than a Black Muslim"

Congolese student in Rabat ESM (Ecole Superieur de Management), Perfect M'Benzé Mouanou is currently a Master in Management Logistics and transport engineering. This is already a year and a half he is studying in Morocco. Today, he testified. "The Congolese do not need a visa to go to Morocco. Only passport is required of us. By cons, we should give around 500 euros of bribes at the airport under threat of being deported. Apart from that, my integration is going well. But I must confess that I wanted to leave my first day here. This does not really happening as I hoped. In Morocco, it resents the cultural and religious difference. A Black non-Muslim is viewed differently than a Black Muslim for example. Such a Moroccan Black and Black abroad. I lived in France 15 years, I also went to Côte d'Ivoire, Togo and many other countries. And I can say that integration is not the same here (...) We are not so many as that in Morocco, but Moroccan we want because there is already a lot of unemployment in the country and they do not accept that we can take 'their' jobs. At the end of my studies, I will return to Congo. I do not see a career here. You know, there was a time when black African students going to study in Côte d'Ivoire and Togo. These are the countries closest to us culturally. But with the troubles in both countries, we have now in Morocco is very different. However, I want to stress that one should not generalize. Morocco is a beautiful country, very open on some points. Some people have very well received, very welcomed. It's really these people who are the pride of the country, "said the young student. Beside him, a young Beninese, who requested anonymity, says, meanwhile, that insults are part of his daily lot.

A shy awareness

Now people start to speak. The subject remains highly taboo in Morocco, a country that makes hospitality a cultural asset. Since the publication of the article by Maria Daif, in the Moroccan newspaper Telquel, there is a slight awareness. Amel Abou El Aazm is a founder of the young association Lawnouna ( "Our Colors"), founded in 2004 and located in Rabat. The purpose of this organization is to bridge the gap between blacks and Moroccans and people from various backgrounds. She said "the discrimination against the africans and blacks is a fact. It's hard enough for them. Nobody can deny that racism exists in Morocco, those who deny it are evidence of bad faith. But we must still admit that it exists in our countries of sub-Saharan Africans who live very well. They understood the need to have some attitude for integration, including mixing with the population. There is a first step to make, adapt and discover another culture and society in which we live. This may be a small number, but it proves that there is a way for this to develop. And that is the purpose of our association. It can help black people to overcome barriers they may encounter. If necessary, eg, 4 to 5 years for a student to integrate with Morocco, Lawnouna wants, through various activities, accelerate this integration.

"Racism is more visible in the street. I do not think there is a single Negro in Morocco, which could leave without being reminded that it is just Black. Stereotypes and prejudices have been on many black people. There was a time when people took to the cannibals, man-eaters. There is also the fact that he is descended from slaves. But you know, I myself spent some time in Congo, I have also already been in Mali. I have been there beyond the clichés and prejudices attributed to me. As a Franco-Moroccan, Mali as the Congo, I spent inevitably experience the 'white African'. These are sentiments rooted in morality, as in Morocco, said the young woman.

"Officially, nothing is done to fight against this racism, even if the king shows a speech pro-African and always remember the OAU in his speeches. He welcomed all the same to see that more and more festivals bringing together African Fulani, Malians are held in the country. In particular, we had a visit from Youssou Ndour (Senegal artist, editor's note), "says Amel Abou El Aazm. The debate is open. And we hope that our modest contribution to help make a difference ...

Friday, May 27, 2005 / 42 reactions

By Smahane Bouyahia

[sandinista! 1,816]

What was your purpose then in writing "Whats wrong with being part black? I would rather be marked as black and with an IQ than be identified with trailer trash and the Jerry Springer show. "?

Exactly what were you trying to say about yourself with this kind of a comment? You certainly didn't do yourself any favors writing it. It's noteworthy, because you think your mindset is so different than some of the others in this thread. But really it's right in line.

I dont think it sounds progressive or foward thinking. I do think that the ickiness started the minute people started insisting that Moroccans were white and not black and that someone considering marrying someone or already married to someone has to defend race to a relative.

I think there is a lot more icky in this thread than my comment..And if you didnt like the thread, why did you wait till I spoke to talk about it?

[KittyPollitt 284]

oh la la

[sandinista! 1,816]

Ethnic distinctions in MENA don't always follow what those in the US most commonly base their classifications on. Actual skin color in many cases is completely irrelevant. Tribal affiliations, patrilineal descent, language spoken, etc are all used amongst people there for their own classifications.

Additionally, even in the old, outdated classification systems the old school anthropologists used, "caucasian" did not exclusively mean "white". It included mena and the horn of Africa, and no one considered everyone there to be "white", just sharing more characteristics with the caucasian grouping than with sub-Saharan Africans, or Asians, Australian aboriginals, etc. The US co-opted that terminology, and made up their own definition to go along with it.

Some history behind the weird way this issue has come up in US history- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

GNAWA AND SLAVERY IN MOROCCO

Ethnic distinctions in MENA don't always follow what those in the US most commonly base their classifications on. Actual skin color in many cases is completely irrelevant. Tribal affiliations, patrilineal descent, language spoken, etc are all used amongst people there for their own classifications.

Additionally, even in the old, outdated classification systems the old school anthropologists used, "caucasian" did not exclusively mean "white". It included mena and the horn of Africa, and no one considered everyone there to be "white", just sharing more characteristics with the caucasian grouping than with sub-Saharan Africans, or Asians, Australian aboriginals, etc. The US co-opted that terminology, and made up their own definition to go along with it.

Some history behind the weird way this issue has come up in US history- http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Bhagat_Singh_Thind

Wonderful article on slavery in Morocco

GNAWA AND SLAVERY IN MOROCCO

[anxious 0]

Interesting. My husband now checks the box marked "other" or describes his race as arab.

I dont see why one would check white/black when you are arab, so neither applies.

The sad part is if one was compelled to think those are the only choices, and cant seem to check the "other" box,

I definitely believe the caucasian box will be checked more than the black one.

There are very strong perceptions of skin color in Morocco. The lighter vs the darker arab. And its not some secret

either.. I have heard the jokes of dark moroccans, seen with my own eyes...a family turn down a male who

was interested in marrying their daughter because his skin was dark/black.

But hey, its everywhere...the idea that lighter skin is more attractive is percieved in India, Mexico...you name it.

Skin bleaching cremes are seen in homes with no running water.smh.

Thats a reality, sad is an understatement.

My husband said he was raised with the same perceptions of lighter vs darker skin..until he came to America

Until he witnessed a white man making a racist remark to him...thinking he was a african american with a light complexion.

He said to me " I used to think this country saw me as white until this man called me a #######." But now I see he

hates me just as much as he would hate a moroccan with darker skin.

I said yes dear....dont get confused. You are arab, and racist people see you in categories..and obviously you didnt

meet the white criteria lol. So now he checks the "other" box...because he had a piece of american reality.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Interesting. My husband now checks the box marked "other" or describes his race as arab.

I dont see why one would check white/black when you are arab, so neither applies.

The sad part is if one was compelled to think those are the only choices, and cant seem to check the "other" box,

I definitely believe the caucasian box will be checked more than the black one.

There are very strong perceptions of skin color in Morocco. The lighter vs the darker arab. And its not some secret

either.. I have heard the jokes of dark moroccans, seen with my own eyes...a family turn down a male who

was interested in marrying their daughter because his skin was dark/black.

But hey, its everywhere...the idea that lighter skin is more attractive is percieved in India, Mexico...you name it.

Skin bleaching cremes are seen in homes with no running water.smh.

Thats a reality, sad is an understatement.

My husband said he was raised with the same perceptions of lighter vs darker skin..until he came to America

Until he witnessed a white man making a racist remark to him...thinking he was a african american with a light complexion.

He said to me " I used to think this country saw me as white until this man called me a #######." But now I see he

hates me just as much as he would hate a moroccan with darker skin.

I said yes dear....dont get confused. You are arab, and racist people see you in categories..and obviously you didnt

meet the white criteria lol. So now he checks the "other" box...because he had a piece of american reality.

what I found even sadder was some of the things other arabs have said to me when I mention my daughter is Moroccan.

First let me preface it by saying the person bashing moroccans was a string haired strung out 55 year old lebanese girl who wore too much makeup, low cut satin shirts and missed the style boat by about 20 years... " Oh Moroccans arent really arabs like I am .. they are Africans dont you know...they dont speak arabic and they are low class." Unfortunately I have to see this woman like every other week. So its not just rednecks who have distorted views of Moroccans . Its other arabs themselves. Another time at my daughters daycare this tatoo covered pajama wearing piece of work asked me what my daughter was.. I told her Moroccan and American ( because shes darker than me and looks Moroccan.. people often ask) She said "Oh other arabs told me they are the puerto ricans of the arab world." First I am thinking what exactly is wrong with puerto ricans....they are wonderful and second, why is this waste of humanity trashing moroccans when she couldnt even find Morocco on the map.

You just have to consider the source. Anyone who would trash an entire people hasnt been out much.. and yes arabs can be racist inter country and yes Moroccans can be racist about their own people and apparently there are people in the US who make themselves feel better by looking down at others.

Arabs themselves have misconceptions of other arabs.. we apparently as a nation dont always understand people even inside of our country and as far as I am concerned, no matter what anyone says, we are all prejudiced in one way or another of people around us based on crappy experiences or perceived crappy experiences and eventually we either move past it or deal with it.

There is nothing like having a mixed race kid though to get peoples real personalities to jump out..I think my worse experience was a redneck down the street calling my daughter a sand *** baby to his kid and his kid repeating it..

When its your kid and shes your flesh and blood, it not only hurts, it makes you a staunch defender of the other culture. I am always trying to educate people about Morocco, its location and culture and to talk back to some of the stupid mena comments I hear from other mena people about Moroccans.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Hanging in there