The cricket Test

[Vi-Jay 218]

[Captain Oates 911]

Your explanation for the fact that youngsters don't know a spitfire from an airbus is because they are all descendants of pakis who don't care about the history? That seems just a tad Daily Mail to me. Those nasty immigrants you fear made up 1.3% of the population in 2001, and even allowing for 12 births per every couple of pakis, that doesn't equal squat in 2011.

Ethnic group Population Proportion of total UK population

White 54,153,898 92.1%

Mixed race 677,117 1.2%

Indian 1,053,411 1.8%

Pakistani 747,285 1.3%

Bangladeshi 283,063 0.5%

Other Asian (non-Chinese) 247,644 0.4%

Black Caribbean 565,876 1.0%

Black African 485,277 0.8%

Black (others) 97,585 0.2%

Chinese 247,403 0.4%

Other 230,615 0.4%

Colombian 247,403 0.4%

What a threat they pose eh?

Your explanation for the inability of British kids to identify planes must lie elsewhere. Surely the more sensible explanation is that the kids today have never seen one?

I came from Bradford - known as Bradistan

What about you ?

I dont fear Pakistanis or Asians or 'people of colour' so I don't know who told you that

When I unloaded coal trucks by hand, my partner was a black ex-boxer from South Africa and he was whiter than me because the coal dust didn't stick to his boxing scars

When I lived in Bradistan, my boozing partner 3 nights a week was a crewcut Sikh - yes I know - they don't drink or smoke or cut their hair

When I was at Leeds University my best pal was Daniel Ng from Hong Kong

I am married to a USian and my previous girl friend was German

etc etc etc - so I have some exposure to other cultures and that is one reason I am interested in culture differences. It's an intellectual thing and I am not a 'birther'.

http://www.granta.com/Online-Only/Bradistan

.

[Peikko 1,575]

I came from Bradford - known as Bradistan

What about you ?

I dont fear Pakistanis or Asians or 'people of colour' so I don't know who told you that

When I unloaded coal trucks by hand, my partner was a black ex-boxer from South Africa and he was whiter than me because the coal dust didn't stick to his boxing scars

When I lived in Bradistan, my boozing partner 3 nights a week was a crewcut Sikh - yes I know - they don't drink or smoke or cut their hair

When I was at Leeds University my best pal was Daniel Ng from Hong Kong

I am married to a USian and my previous girl friend was German

etc etc etc - so I have some exposure to other cultures and that is one reason I am interested in culture differences. It's an intellectual thing and I am not a 'birther'.

http://www.granta.co...-Only/Bradistan

.

You fear something otherwise you wouldn't be blaming the demise of the ability of the British youngster being able to tell a spitfire from an airbus on something completely irrelevant and use emotive language in so doing. The fact that there might be a couple of thousand first generation immigrants who can't speak English, breed 12 kids and don't identify with the monarchy is hardly a rational explanation as to why the kids of the super majority 92.1% white population have lost that ability if indeed they have.

[Captain Oates 911]

You fear something otherwise you wouldn't be blaming the demise of the ability of the British youngster being able to tell a spitfire from an airbus on something completely irrelevant and use emotive language in so doing. The fact that there might be a couple of thousand first generation immigrants who can't speak English, breed 12 kids and don't identify with the monarchy is hardly a rational explanation as to why the kids of the super majority 92.1% white population have lost that ability if indeed they have.

Why don't you come clean and put the details of your VJ membership so that people can see more about you ? For all we know your background might be that of a Politically Correct student who is all theory - or someone from Surrey.

The statistics and numbers you quote do not fit with the experience of people in cities like Bradford and Leicester or London or Birmingham. 'A couple of thousand' does not accord with the view of the MP from Keighley for instance.

The UK has changed enormously through immigration and it's no good saying it hasn't. Whether immigration is good or bad or going well is another subject - but minimalising it is not acknowledging the matter and is therefore ignoring something that is apparent to the whole world

I am more interested in the sociological effects of incoming populations so steering it to the idea that I fear something and trying to pin a badge on me is too simplistic

Perhaps you are the one with the deep down fear and that is why these things are a taboo subject for you - just like sex is a taboo subject for a prude.

[Ban Hammer 13,636]

it's a sad day for british history when some don't know what a spitfire is.

[Captain Oates 911]

it's a sad day for british history when some don't know what a spitfire is.

It's final proof of my fogiehood

Every generation experiences it - the detachment of youth from those things which mattered to the previous generation is exacerbated by that youth being immigrants or the children of immigrants and therefore having nothing 'handed down'

I live in desert in Washington State where I bet there isn't another Englishman for 150 miles - so I am not quite changing the cultural mix - actually I probably am because I bring Yorkshire tea bags back for my pals at the gun club - thus steering them away from the American coffee drinking habit

But not knowing about Spitfires is worse than saying " Aethelred ? who was he ?"

[Peikko 1,575]

Why don't you come clean and put the details of your VJ membership so that people can see more about you ? For all we know your background might be that of a Politically Correct student who is all theory - or someone from Surrey.

The statistics and numbers you quote do not fit with the experience of people in cities like Bradford and Leicester or London or Birmingham. 'A couple of thousand' does not accord with the view of the MP from Keighley for instance.

The UK has changed enormously through immigration and it's no good saying it hasn't. Whether immigration is good or bad or going well is another subject - but minimalising it is not acknowledging the matter and is therefore ignoring something that is apparent to the whole world

I am more interested in the sociological effects of incoming populations so steering it to the idea that I fear something and trying to pin a badge on me is too simplistic

Perhaps you are the one with the deep down fear and that is why these things are a taboo subject for you - just like sex is a taboo subject for a prude.

Either an argument is coherent or it is not., I'll leave you to speculate on my bias, after all, if you can't work it out then my bias is not that important, now is it?

As to statistics versus experience, for an experience to have value it has to be based in reality. Once again, if someone perceives things to be different to the way they actually are, then the person who sees things differently is the one who is subject to irrationality not the one who sees things as they are.

You cite cities which have the larger concentrations of immigrant populations as some kind of howzat answer, yet fail to provide any explanation whatsoever as to why these concentrated immigrant populations have any bearing whatsoever on why the average Brit kid (who despite the birth number difference between immigrant and indigenous Brit is at least 90% likely to be a white indigenous kid) in knowing the difference between a spitfire and an airbus. So, I'll ask again, what has one thing got to do with the other? Are you suggesting that this 1.3% of the population, concentrated in these urban populations has some kind of mesmeric influence over everyone else so much so that they conveniently 'forget' their own heritage? That seems outlandish in the extreme.

The problem is that you seem to believe that these small numbers of immigrants have a completely disproportionate influence over a super majority white population yet fail to give any corroborative data as to how they manage to do that citing only the fact that in some specific urban areas the population densitiy of specific immingrant groups is more significant than the national average. Forgive me for being totally unimpressed by your argument.

The more logical explanation is that the Spitfire is not seen in the skies by anyone, be they immigrant or indigenous Brit in any but speficic and extremely limited circumstances. The airbus by contrast is everywhere. Perhaps you should blame this, not on the immigrant populations but the modern child's lack of interest in Biggles?

[Peikko 1,575]

It's final proof of my fogiehood

Every generation experiences it - the detachment of youth from those things which mattered to the previous generation is exacerbated by that youth being immigrants or the children of immigrants and therefore having nothing 'handed down'

I live in desert in Washington State where I bet there isn't another Englishman for 150 miles - so I am not quite changing the cultural mix - actually I probably am because I bring Yorkshire tea bags back for my pals at the gun club - thus steering them away from the American coffee drinking habit

But not knowing about Spitfires is worse than saying " Aethelred ? who was he ?"

You have not proved in any way that the average Brit kid doesn't know what a Spitfire is, you haven't even proved that they couldn't recognize one, although I would guess they probably are far less likely to recognize one than to have heard, or know what one is. What you have concluded is that because of one journalists ignorance everyone must be equally ignorant. That's another fantastic leap in the dark based on nothing but innuendo.

[Captain Oates 911]

Either an argument is coherent or it is not., I'll leave you to speculate on my bias, after all, if you can't work it out then my bias is not that important, now is it?

As to statistics versus experience, for an experience to have value it has to be based in reality. Once again, if someone perceives things to be different to the way they actually are, then the person who sees things differently is the one who is subject to irrationality not the one who sees things as they are.

You cite cities which have the larger concentrations of immigrant populations as some kind of howzat answer, yet fail to provide any explanation whatsoever as to why these concentrated immigrant populations have any bearing whatsoever on why the average Brit kid (who despite the birth number difference between immigrant and indigenous Brit is at least 90% likely to be a white indigenous kid) in knowing the difference between a spitfire and an airbus. So, I'll ask again, what has one thing got to do with the other? Are you suggesting that this 1.3% of the population, concentrated in these urban populations has some kind of mesmeric influence over everyone else so much so that they conveniently 'forget' their own heritage? That seems outlandish in the extreme.

The problem is that you seem to believe that these small numbers of immigrants have a completely disproportionate influence over a super majority white population yet fail to give any corroborative data as to how they manage to do that citing only the fact that in some specific urban areas the population densitiy of specific immingrant groups is more significant than the national average. Forgive me for being totally unimpressed by your argument.

The more logical explanation is that the Spitfire is not seen in the skies by anyone, be they immigrant or indigenous Brit in any but speficic and extremely limited circumstances. The airbus by contrast is everywhere. Perhaps you should blame this, not on the immigrant populations but the modern child's lack of interest in Biggles?

Your reference to the creation of Captain Johns indicates that you are not a student.

Nevertheless , I think that by diluting those dodgy statistics (which naturally do not include illegals or people who are not interested in census forms), by throwing every Devon cow farmer and Hebridean fisherman into the mix, is a distortion of the modern urban experience in the UK

There are plenty of areas where non-native births far outweigh the native ones by a large factor

When I was being treated at Bradford Infirmary, the waiting room (50 people)was like Kabul or Islamabad rather than Cheltenham or Harrogate. A minority could speak English and I was the only native I could identify. That is a far more accurate picture of many city areas of the UK

I am carefully not saying that is right or wrong because half a million Brits have moved to southern Spain and swamp the population there. The same occurs in the US - the Muslim population of Minnesota for instance. Everywhere in the world, this phenomenon is regarded with apprehension by the natives.

Everywhere it happens, the former collective and handed down experience of the locals must, of necessity, be eroded and passes away into history and the original culture deplores it. It's natural.

Thousands of years of English history IS being changed and superseded in many areas and is worth remarking on. The statistics of births point very clearly to the rapid change that is taking place. The natives are breeding at 1.2 per woman (2.2 needed for status quo) and

they are dying out anyway - add the changes brought by immigration and the reproductive differences in the immigrant population, and that accelerates change to a point where the natives are going to have to their history die so they had better get used to it

I am pointing this out as a matter of interest and the spitfire example is just a proxy for pointing out the shrinking heritage base

Edited April 30, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I have thirty or forty Biggles books next to me right now (they are my wife's). Sadly I haven't read a single one yet. I did find out recently that he was only a Lieutenant and the publisher convinced him to have the title of Captain.

Btw here are some British jets out there from late in the war like the Meteor.

[Peikko 1,575]

Your reference to the creation of Captain Johns indicates that you are not a student.

Nevertheless , I think that by diluting those dodgy statistics (which naturally do not include illegals or people who are not interested in census forms), by throwing every Devon cow farmer and Hebridean fisherman into the mix, is a distortion of the modern urban experience in the UK

There are plenty of areas where non-native births far outweigh the native ones by a large factor

When I was being treated at Bradford Infirmary, the waiting room (50 people)was like Kabul or Islamabad rather than Cheltenham or Harrogate. A minority could speak English and I was the only native I could identify. That is a far more accurate picture of many city areas of the UK

I am carefully not saying that is right or wrong because half a million Brits have moved to southern Spain and swamp the population there. The same occurs in the US - the Muslim population of Minnesota for instance. Everywhere in the world, this phenomenon is regarded with apprehension by the natives.

Everywhere it happens, the former collective and handed down experience of the locals must, of necessity, be eroded and passes away into history and the original culture deplores it. It's natural.

Thousands of years of English history IS being changed and superseded in many areas and is worth remarking on. The statistics of births point very clearly to the rapid change that is taking place. The natives are breeding at 1.2 per woman (2.2 needed for status quo) and

they are dying out anyway - add the changes brought by immigration and the reproductive differences in the immigrant population, and that accelerates change to a point where the natives are going to have to their history die so they had better get used to it

I am pointing this out as a matter of interest and the spitfire example is just a proxy for pointing out the shrinking heritage base

...

Today I was watching the Royal Wedding and a flight consisting of an AVRO Lancaster and a Supermarine Spitfire and a Hawker Hurricane flew up the Mall (Mall as in Pal - not MORL)

The BBC had a commentator of South Asian appearance who said they were 'World war 2 jets'

I reached for my aspirin and nearly fainted with indignation

That guy failed the 'cricket test' miserably

Poor old Blighty - the country really has gone to the dogs

This is you carefully avoiding negative connotations?

I see, I look forward to your posts of more pointed disdain, they should be choice.

Regardless, what you said was that the fact that an Asian looking commentator failed to accurately describe 3 WW2 aircraft reflected the sad state of affairs regarding the average Brit's ability to understand his/her cultural heritage. It was garbage when you said it, and it is garbage now you repeat it.

Whether or not the cultural makeup of various urban areas of the UK has changed or not is moot, this has no bearing on whether or not the average Joe teen knows his spitfire from his Airbus, when your evidence is that a commentator of Asian appearance described them as WW2 jets.

I'll gloss over attempt to suggest that knowledge of Biggles attests to my scholarly achievements or lack thereof as being just mere silliness.

[Captain Oates 911]

I have thirty or forty Biggles books next to me right now (they are my wife's). Sadly I haven't read a single one yet. I did find out recently that he was only a Lieutenant and the publisher convinced him to have the title of Captain.

Btw here are some British jets out there from late in the war like the Meteor.

Heck I didnt realise that so much culture still existed ! Long live ginger and lots of side slipping !

[JimandChristy 1,689]

The best parts of the wedding were Jerusalem being sung in the Abbey and the flyover of the Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane. I never saw the BBC coverage but if they were called "jets" then that's just really embarrassing on their part.

[Captain Oates 911]

This is you carefully avoiding negative connotations?

I see, I look forward to your posts of more pointed disdain, they should be choice.

Regardless, what you said was that the fact that an Asian looking commentator failed to accurately describe 3 WW2 aircraft reflected the sad state of affairs regarding the average Brit's ability to understand his/her cultural heritage. It was garbage when you said it, and it is garbage now you repeat it.

Whether or not the cultural makeup of various urban areas of the UK has changed or not is moot, this has no bearing on whether or not the average Joe teen knows his spitfire from his Airbus, when your evidence is that a commentator of Asian appearance described them as WW2 jets.

I'll gloss over attempt to suggest that knowledge of Biggles attests to my scholarly achievements or lack thereof as being just mere silliness.

I think that claiming minimal changes in UK society as a result of immigration is also silliness and the whole world knows it. I don't need diluted stats to prove it because anyone who has ever been to inner city UK knows that your assertions are wrong from just looking around

'judicial notice ' is the legal term for not having to prove what is apparent to everyone.

I gave one small example and you think I am building a case based just on that ? There are thousands of cultural references which are lost on immigrants. As an immigrant myself I will forever be ignorant of many aspects of American life

The difference is that my ignorance of American cultural references will not affect the American culture whereas large concentrations of immigrants into any area, will change it forever

My interest is the loss of cultural continuity which is lost by large scale immigration

The people of Yorkshire knew all about that during the Viking invasions The culture prior to the 1960's is bound to degrade significantly by the addition of millions of people with no historic connection to the country

I was there at the start of this and when I was coming home from school, I remember 50 Pakistani men walking home in single file and all holding hands with the man behind in case they got separated

What did these guys know of England's history or England's ways and stories from the past ? Nothing. What do their children and grandchildren want to know now ? Nothing.

If I had emigrated to Pakistan or Persia, would I be busy learning their cultural references ? No

It obviously breaks the continuity of a culture and if you could get just the Spitfire out of your mind, you would see it does. British Asians preoccupy the mind of the CIA and the British Government and the problem of trying to weave them into British Society is a major project which will be limited if it progresses at all.

To claim it's small beer and insignificant is not supported by what everyone knows to be so

I know you are on a witch hunt to try and cry 'racist' but you won't find one here because my observations apply equally to say the 500,000 British in Spain and how they are regarded by the Spanish, apart from their economic benefit of course, and I am sure that rapid immigration in parts of the USA pose a challenge

[Peikko 1,575]

I think that claiming minimal changes in UK society as a result of immigration is also silliness and the whole world knows it. I don't need diluted stats to prove it because anyone who has ever been to inner city UK knows that your assertions are wrong from just looking around

'judicial notice ' is the legal term for not having to prove what is apparent to everyone.

I gave one small example and you think I am building a case based just on that ? There are thousands of cultural references which are lost on immigrants. As an immigrant myself I will forever be ignorant of many aspects of American life

The difference is that my ignorance of American cultural references will not affect the American culture whereas large concentrations of immigrants into any area, will change it forever

My interest is the loss of cultural continuity which is lost by large scale immigration

The people of Yorkshire knew all about that during the Viking invasions The culture prior to the 1960's is bound to degrade significantly by the addition of millions of people with no historic connection to the country

I was there at the start of this and when I was coming home from school, I remember 50 Pakistani men walking home in single file and all holding hands with the man behind in case they got separated

What did these guys know of England's history or England's ways and stories from the past ? Nothing. What do their children and grandchildren want to know now ? Nothing.

If I had emigrated to Pakistan or Persia, would I be busy learning their cultural references ? No

It obviously breaks the continuity of a culture and if you could get just the Spitfire out of your mind, you would see it does. British Asians preoccupy the mind of the CIA and the British Government and the problem of trying to weave them into British Society is a major project which will be limited if it progresses at all.

To claim it's small beer and insignificant is not supported by what everyone knows to be so

I know you are on a witch hunt to try and cry 'racist' but you won't find one here because my observations apply equally to say the 500,000 British in Spain and how they are regarded by the Spanish, apart from their economic benefit of course, and I am sure that rapid immigration in parts of the USA pose a challenge

I haven't made any claims or assertions about the effects of immigrants on the British culture, you are the one doing that. The only claim I have made is that you have provided no evidence to subtantiate your accusations against a specific immigrant population. What you have said is all curtain twitching innuendo. These are not proofs, nothing you have said is proof of anything except perhaps (and I say perhaps advisedly) your personal prejudice against a specific immigrant group. You may think that all immigrant groups are having this 'going to the dogs' affect on British culture, but you haven't said that, you have specifically pointed to Pakistanis as the ones responsible for a 'lack of continuity of culture' (whatever the hell that may prove to mean) so my speculations as to the reason why are perfectly valid whether or not they are right or wrong.

Personally, I can point to any number of youth who do not know, respect or understand the British cultural heritage that you cherish and none of them are immigrants, nor are they the offspring of 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation immigrants. Britain is changing, of course it is, what country is standing still culturally? What country ever has? However, this change is not exclusively driven by 'outsiders', and to suggest that it is, when these outsiders make up such a paltry minority of the entire population is, quite frankly delusional.

Let's be clear, there is immigration into Britain and it does have an effect. The problem is that you are suggesting that one of the minority immigrant populations (and a shrinking 1st generation immigrant population at that) has a disproportionate and bad influence on British culture. That is not a substantiated fact because it's simply not true.