Secret Prisons

[mmmbop1976 1]

what would be better... putting them in secret prisons, or assasinating them covertly?!

prison so they can be interrogated for information that can prevent other attacks, which it has

oh, so that the US can commit human rights violations in secret, yet condem other countries, like China, for doing the same thing?!

funny, i don't think any of bush's political rivals said that there were any human rights violations. john kerry...silent, ted kennedy...silent...et al.....aclu, silent. what human rights were violated?

why would any of the US politicians point a finger at themselves?!!! Abusing prisoners, whether in secret or not, is still an abuse of human rights, and something the US doesn't condone for other countries, so why should it be okay for the US? If it was, then there would be.... SECRET PRISONS!!!

your making an assumption based on your dislike and distrust for bush. there has been no charge made by any competent authority that their human rights were violated.

* At least 45 detainees died in U.S. custody due to suspected or confirmed criminal homicides.[1] At least eight people were tortured to death. At least 98 detainees have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan;[2]

* At least 69 of the detainees died at locations other than Abu Ghraib;[3]

* At least 51 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004;[4]

* 12 deaths have led to punishments of U.S. personnel;[5]

* 0 CIA personnel have been charged with wrongdoing in connection with alleged involvement in at least 5 deaths;[6]

* As of November 2005, over 83,000 people have been held in U.S. custody, and about 30,000 of those were entered “into the system,” and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan;[7]

* There have been nearly 600 criminal investigations into allegations of detainee abuse; each investigation tends to include more than one U.S. soldier, more than one instance of abuse, and more than one victim. Allegations against 250 Soldiers have been addressed in courts-martial, non-judicial punishments, and other adverse administrative punishments. The highest ranking military member judicially punished in connection with the death of a detainee is Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was found guilty of maltreatment and dereliction of duty and dismissed from the service.[8]

* Reportedly 100-150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan;[9]

* There are 6 main acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide--3 in Iraq, 2 in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay;[10]

* There are approximately 25 transient facilities - field prisons designed to house detainees only for a short period until they can be released or transferred to a more permanent facility-in Afghanistan and Iraq;[11]

* There are believed to be at least 11 ‘secret’ detention locations used since September 2001. They are/were CIA facilities in Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Poland, Romania, and Jordan, detention facilities in Alizai, Kohat and Peshawar in Pakistan, a facility on the U.S. Naval Base on the island of Diego-Garcia, and detentions of prisoners on U.S. ships, particularly the USS Peleliu and USS Bataan.[12]

* Over 15,000 people are currently in U.S. detention in just Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. As of February 16, 2006, in Iraq, there were 14,389 detainees in U.S. custody; as of December 2005, the U.S. was holding approximately 500 detainees in Afghanistan; as of February 10, 2006 there are approximately 490 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and one enemy combatants held in the U.S.;[13]

* 36 prisoners are believed to be held in unknown locations;[14]

* At least 376 foreign fighters detained in Iraq to whom the Administration has asserted the Geneva Conventions do not apply;[15]

* There were up to 100 ghost detainees in Iraq;[16]

* The U.S. transferred at least one dozen prisoners out of Iraq for further interrogation in violation of the Geneva Conventions;[17]

* 8 percent of 517 Guantanamo detainees were considered al Qaeda fighters by the U.S. Government. Of the remaining detainees, 40% have no definitive connection to al Qaeda or Taliban.[18]

* 5 percent of the 517 detainees held at Guantanamo were captured by the United States and the majority of those currently in custody were turned over by other parties during a time when the United States was offering large sums for captured prisoners.[19]

* At least 267 detainees have been released from Guantanamo Bay since January 2002. 187 were released out right, and 80 were transferred to their home countries for continued detention;[20]

* 38 detainees at Guantanamo determined not to be enemy combatants pursuant to CSRT and at least 23 detainees subsequently released; 558 CSRTS conducted in total[21]

* As of February 9, 2006, the military had completed its first round of Administrative Review Board (ARB) hearings, resulting in 463 board recommendations of which Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon R. England, the Designated Civilian Official for ARBs decided to allow 14 releases (3 percent), 120 transfers (26 percent) and to continue to detain 329 individuals (71 percent);[22]

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn...c/factsheet.htm

Maybe Bush's opponent's are saying but humanrightsfirst.org is

and you will notice in your supporting evidence that when there is an alleged violation it is investigated and if proven the guilty party is brought to justice.....something you won't see happen in china, etc...

[*Robert* 2]

and you will notice in your supporting evidence that when there is an alleged violation it is investigated and if proven the guilty party is brought to justice.....something you won't see happen in china, etc...

i'll give you that much, but only because it became public knowledge, they have no choice but to take action...

[jjjimmy 0]

i hope that happens

[Marc and Olga 0]

and you will notice in your supporting evidence that when there is an alleged violation it is investigated and if proven the guilty party is brought to justice.....something you won't see happen in china, etc...

i'll give you that much, but only because it became public knowledge, they have no choice but to take action...

And how many go by unnoticed, unpunished but totally authorized by the bosses?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Amnesty International and The International Committee for the Red Cross have reported on abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. But we apparently only listen to them when they're telling us what we want to hear - that countries we don't agree with are evil.

You can't relativise the abuse of human rights by saying "so and so does worse". That's a rather childish argument IMO.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Amnesty International and The International Committee for the Red Cross have reported on abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. But we apparently only listen to them when they're telling us what we want to hear - that countries we don't agree with are evil.

You can't relativise the abuse of human rights by saying "so and so does worse". That's a rather childish argument IMO.

Not only that, but even if one were to put aside any moral issues with regard to the abuse of these detainees, and you believed that every single one of them was a terrorist, interrogation experts have said that torture is not effective in extracting accurate information. I'm sure Freud would have a time with explaining the psychosis of a country's leadership who focused it's fear and outrage over 9/11 into such things as torture and abuse.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Amnesty International and The International Committee for the Red Cross have reported on abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. But we apparently only listen to them when they're telling us what we want to hear - that countries we don't agree with are evil.

You can't relativise the abuse of human rights by saying "so and so does worse". That's a rather childish argument IMO.

Not only that, but even if one were to put aside any moral issues with regard to the abuse of these detainees, and you believed that every single one of them was a terrorist, interrogation experts have said that torture is not effective in extracting accurate information. I'm sure Freud would have a time with explaining the psychosis of a country's leadership who focused it's fear and outrage over 9/11 into such things as torture and abuse.

True enough - and the rationale that human rights and the Geneva convention don't apply to certain people based on (again) a twisted legality - its Straussian philosophy once again.

[VetsWife328 7]

First of all ,I DO NOT agree with everything the US Government does.

BUT-

when it comes to "the war on terror" yes I do in most cases.And by God I hope that they would /will also arrest suspects if they are WHITE.They should arrest EVERYBODY who supports terrorism against the United States (and of course other countries,but we are talking about the US here) .

I personally don't care at all what it takes to get information out of a prisoner,as long as they're sucsessful in avoiding another attack on America or Americans.

The Hijackers were Muslims thats a fact.I find it very sad that all Muslims are being looked at as Terrorists ,but it unfortunatley is the truth that them hijackers have not been white Christians.

Get real people.What IS the government supposed to do about terror sspects and how are they supposed to gather info when not from insiders????

Now think about it,you have a guy there and there's evidence that he knows about future terror attacks-would you NOT try everything to get info out of him to AVOID it from happening all over again????

As I said I dont agree with everything Bush says and does (like the war in Iraq) but trust me when it comes to that subject I would volunteer .....I would not have a single probelm with that as long as there IS ENOUGH evidence saying that the person being put in a secret prison inded has something to do with terrorists or terrorism itself.

Nat

[Marc and Olga 0]

First of all ,I DO NOT agree with everything the US Government does.

BUT-

when it comes to "the war on terror" yes I do in most cases.And by God I hope that they would /will also arrest suspects if they are WHITE.They should arrest EVERYBODY who supports terrorism against the United States (and of course other countries,but we are talking about the US here) .

I personally don't care at all what it takes to get information out of a prisoner,as long as they're sucsessful in avoiding another attack on America or Americans.

The Hijackers were Muslims thats a fact.I find it very sad that all Muslims are being looked at as Terrorists ,but it unfortunatley is the truth that them hijackers have not been white Christians.

Get real people.What IS the government supposed to do about terror sspects and how are they supposed to gather info when not from insiders????

Now think about it,you have a guy there and there's evidence that he knows about future terror attacks-would you NOT try everything to get info out of him to AVOID it from happening all over again????

As I said I dont agree with everything Bush says and does (like the war in Iraq) but trust me when it comes to that subject I would volunteer .....I would not have a single probelm with that as long as there IS ENOUGH evidence saying that the person being put in a secret prison inded has something to do with terrorists or terrorism itself.

Nat

So, we may as well just toss our human rights stance out the door.

Here's an example, say you have a child and you teach them that stealing is bad but then you turn around and steal a loaf of bread and say "well we need to eat this week"! What message are you really giving this child?

So to the issue at hand, we say "torture is bad and that these countries MUST stop their practices of torture!" Then we turn around and torture "hey they are suspected terrorists!" What message are we REALLY giving to the rest of the world?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

First of all ,I DO NOT agree with everything the US Government does.

BUT-

when it comes to "the war on terror" yes I do in most cases.And by God I hope that they would /will also arrest suspects if they are WHITE.They should arrest EVERYBODY who supports terrorism against the United States (and of course other countries,but we are talking about the US here) .

I personally don't care at all what it takes to get information out of a prisoner,as long as they're sucsessful in avoiding another attack on America or Americans.

The Hijackers were Muslims thats a fact.I find it very sad that all Muslims are being looked at as Terrorists ,but it unfortunatley is the truth that them hijackers have not been white Christians.

Get real people.What IS the government supposed to do about terror sspects and how are they supposed to gather info when not from insiders????

Now think about it,you have a guy there and there's evidence that he knows about future terror attacks-would you NOT try everything to get info out of him to AVOID it from happening all over again????

As I said I dont agree with everything Bush says and does (like the war in Iraq) but trust me when it comes to that subject I would volunteer .....I would not have a single probelm with that as long as there IS ENOUGH evidence saying that the person being put in a secret prison inded has something to do with terrorists or terrorism itself.

Nat

Four words: Due...Process...Of...Law...!?

[Fischkoepfin 1]

First of all ,I DO NOT agree with everything the US Government does.

BUT-

when it comes to "the war on terror" yes I do in most cases.And by God I hope that they would /will also arrest suspects if they are WHITE.They should arrest EVERYBODY who supports terrorism against the United States (and of course other countries,but we are talking about the US here) .

I personally don't care at all what it takes to get information out of a prisoner,as long as they're sucsessful in avoiding another attack on America or Americans.

The Hijackers were Muslims thats a fact.I find it very sad that all Muslims are being looked at as Terrorists ,but it unfortunatley is the truth that them hijackers have not been white Christians.

Get real people.What IS the government supposed to do about terror sspects and how are they supposed to gather info when not from insiders????

Now think about it,you have a guy there and there's evidence that he knows about future terror attacks-would you NOT try everything to get info out of him to AVOID it from happening all over again????

As I said I dont agree with everything Bush says and does (like the war in Iraq) but trust me when it comes to that subject I would volunteer .....I would not have a single probelm with that as long as there IS ENOUGH evidence saying that the person being put in a secret prison inded has something to do with terrorists or terrorism itself.

Nat

Four words: Due...Process...Of...Law...!?

After all due process has worked against terrorism in the past. Employing terrorist/totalitarian tactics to extract information hasn't.

[mmmbop1976 1]

And how many go by unnoticed, unpunished but totally authorized by the bosses?

this statement is total conjecture and without fact. again, you let your dislike and distrust of bush colour your argument. i do know that i have heard president bush state repeatedly that we do not torture. now, true, there may be some individuals that will unlawfully violate the human rights of some detainee somewhere, and if it is found out, they are prosecuted. that is what makes us different from china and other human rights violating countries. you cannot guarantee that a human rights violation will not ever occur, it's what is done about it when discovered that is important. unless of course it was proven that it was sanctioned by "the bosses", but that is not proven to be the case as yet. so, in summary, your whole arguments here in this thread about human rights violations is hereby debunked. until you have factual evidence that the US is sanctioning human rights violations....case closed

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

until you have factual evidence that the US is sanctioning human rights violations....case closed

Not really - the sheer existence of 'black hole' prisons around the world (including Guantanamo Bay) is essentially a human rights black hole - where detainees are not permitted any legal rights, are held indefinitely without charge and those who are tried are tried by a secret military tribunal. That's a set of rules we don't even apply to our worst criminals! Even disregarding the 'possibility' of torture - the denial of 'due process of law' is a violation in itself - and flies in the face of everything the US stands for, including that "liberty" and "democracy" stuff Bush loves to throw out there (but clearly doesn't understand, except in the most trite, matter of fact manner), while it is synonymous with the regimes we claim to oppose.

[jjjimmy 0]

The fact that people have been released from guantanamo after being held 2 years without being charged is evidence enough for me.If thats not violating rights i dont know what is.I think if this were mmmbops family member he would feel different.Which brings us back to "its ok because it doesnt effect me".After all the canadian man i saw on the news talking about his ordeal was "muslim" so i guess that makes it ok!

[mmmbop1976 1]

The fact that people have been released from guantanamo after being held 2 years without being charged is evidence enough for me.If thats not violating rights i dont know what is.I think if this were mmmbops family member he would feel different.Which brings us back to "its ok because it doesnt effect me".After all the canadian man i saw on the news talking about his ordeal was "muslim" so i guess that makes it ok!

throughout history prisoners of war are held and interogated for intelligence purposes. and that is what these detainees are. it's not the same as, say, a murder case here in the states. i'm all for due process of the alleged killer. but these detainees were not trying to perpetrate a crime against individuals, their goal is to make the USA no longer exist, and that is an act of war, not a criminal act. hence, holding them without charge, interogating is proper. some may have been detained that were later proven to be no threat and unfortunate for them, but this is a war and war is not perfect. thousands of pow's have been held and interogated in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam without ever being charged. They were held until the conflict was over and then released upon negotiation of a surrender or ceasefire. war is not perfect but it is real and we are in a real war now. if this were a member of my family i would not feel different, as long as they were not tortured. btw, it's possible, although we will never know, that holding and interogating these individuals may have saved the lives of some of your family members, of course just conjecture, but it is a possibility.

also, there has not been another attack on the USA homeland since 9/11, and that is precisely because we have declared war on terrorism, you can bet your bottom dollar that had al qaeda been able to, they would have by now. just thought i'd throw that in...