Students asked to give part of their GPA to lower earning student.

[Zero Sum 305]

He said study motivator before. Hence outside of class.

Indeed. Learning occurs far beyond the period in between bells. Some folks never got that, but they certainly became experts at studying and learning.

[slim 1,530]

Is that resentment I note?

Nope. Just noting how yet again someone passed the buck in the name of "the greater good" and "everyone helping everyone" instead of holding people accountable for their own actions.

Indeed. Learning occurs far beyond the period in between bells. Some folks never got that, but they certainly became experts at studying and learning.

If only they could've become experts at holding down a job and supporting their kids.

[Zero Sum 305]

Nope. Just noting how yet again someone passed the buck in the name of "the greater good" and "everyone helping everyone" instead of holding people accountable for their own actions.

If only they could've become experts at holding down a job and supporting their kids.

All students achieved and tested higher than the academic levels they started at. This means the strategy works.

Of these students, last I heard, most were in college.

Your second post also reeks of resentment. Hopefully I am wrong on that.

[slim 1,530]

All students achieved and tested higher than the academic levels they started at. This means the strategy works.

Works how? The students who were "helped" were taught to fish?

Or were they taught they could get a fish from this place at this time? Dare I say some of those students are now gathering fish from other sources since their classmates won't be there to help them forever.

Of these students, last I heard, most were in college.

Where, undoubtedly, they're learning how to work "as a team" and being helped along, yet again, by more productive students.

Your second post also reeks of resentment. Hopefully I am wrong on that.

If you're insinuating I resent the fact that everyone gets a trophy, absolutely.

Not everyone deserves a trophy. The unfortunate thing is as time goes on, we're being fed the bullsh!t of not only everyone deserving one, but we should pay for the trophy they can't afford for themselves.

[Zero Sum 305]

It seems like you are assuming a great many things in nipicking presumptive reasons for increased academic achievement.

Simply put, these students learned. And learning is what its all about. Check those methodologies before continuing the litany of incorrect presumptions.

[Golden Gate 530]

Works how? The students who were "helped" were taught to fish?

Or were they taught they could get a fish from this place at this time? Dare I say some of those students are now gathering fish from other sources since their classmates won't be there to help them forever.

Where, undoubtedly, they're learning how to work "as a team" and being helped along, yet again, by more productive students.

If a student has no positive resources at home and is therefore at a disadvantage for learning, having classmates that have a positive influence on their learning can aid them in becoming

better learners themselves. This means that these students can become more independent learners and succeed on their own in the future.

[slim 1,530]

It seems like you are assuming a great many things in nipicking presumptive reasons for increased academic achievement.

Simply put, these students learned. And learning is what its all about. Check those methodologies before continuing the litany of incorrect presumptions.

By "increased academic achievement" are you saying teaching the dumb kids was a good use of time/skills for the smarter kids? Because, from where I'm sitting it seems to me they could've increased a little more, academically, if they wouldn't have been wasting their time doing your job for you.

Together

Everyone

Achieves

More

Bullsh!t. Together, it takes more people to get the job done and the "good" people end up pulling most of the load while the "bad" people ride the coattails of their successes. The problem is in today's society we don't give credit to the most productive and the best and brightest. We actually think their achievements belong, somehow, to us as well.

I don't know where we got that idea.... TEAM, maybe?

[Zero Sum 305]

If a student has no positive resources at home and is therefore at a disadvantage for learning, having classmates that have a positive influence on their learning can aid them in becoming

better learners themselves. This means that these students can become more independent learners and succeed on their own in the future.

Yep. That being one of the prime motivators for group learning. In my experience, it worked.

[Zero Sum 305]

By "increased academic achievement" are you saying teaching the dumb kids was a good use of time/skills for the smarter kids? Because, from where I'm sitting it seems to me they could've increased a little more, academically, if they wouldn't have been wasting their time doing your job for you.

Together

Everyone

Achieves

More

Bullsh!t. Together, it takes more people to get the job done and the "good" people end up pulling most of the load while the "bad" people ride the coattails of their successes. The problem is in today's society we don't give credit to the most productive and the best and brightest. We actually think their achievements belong, somehow, to us as well.

I don't know where we got that idea.... TEAM, maybe?

Well, if you'd ask me to see if it were possible to correlate the 'smarter' kids with a degree of academic and professional success beyond my classroom as a result of having spent time learning by teaching their peers, you'd first need to provide a framework for the correlation to be accurate. I could perhaps survey those kids I remember and see what their academic and career paths have in store for them.

Your resentful tirade is a bit hilarious. Were you by any chance in the lower achieving groups? I ask nicely and with no intent to damage feelings, since you seem to be missing the obvious points being stated here- and your rant about high achieving members of a society and those at the bottom that mooch off the productive members is a bit beyond the scope of what we're discussing here: something about classroom methodology and students acquiring tools to be efficient, effective, and productive thinkers and achievers.

How these levels of achievement manifest themselves depends on the choices students makes for themselves. Typically, high achievers are rewarded with high grades and that tends to correlate at times with more successful career options, pay, and choices.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I don't know where we got that idea.... TEAM, maybe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFGD5pj03M

Edited April 25, 2011 by Sousuke

[AmyWrites 593]

I don't see how this is a fair comparison. Some people don't have the intellect, desire to work hard, or the ability to screw their teachers into getting a better grade.

I'm a liberal (in most aspects) and I don't believe in giving everyone a "fair share" if they don't deserve it. I believe in hard work.

Problem is most people who take the largest slices of the cake are there out of luck and having good connections, not because they actually did anything to get there. So most people who want something better out of their lives, to move up a step in "the ladder", never will.

[The Dude 206]

So why did you still have a job? I mean, if your students were doing the teaching, what did the taxpayers pay you to do?

Do the citizens of the state of Ohio get a refund for the resources wasted on prosecuting criminals? Restitution?

[slim 1,530]

Your resentful tirade is a bit hilarious.

I'm glad I could entertain you.

Were you by any chance in the lower achieving groups?

No. I always found myself frustrated by teachers like you who said, "help these dumb kids learn." Your job is to teach all the kids. My job is to learn source material. It matters absolutely nil to me if the dumb kids learn or not. It is not my job to teach them or to learn some bigger "life lesson" of how to work as a team in order to carry the minimum standard crowd through life.

I wish I had a dollar for every bit of busy work I had to do so the dumb kids could up their grades by copying out of a book at home every night or "participating in a group project" so the dummies could mooch off the hard work of the smart kids. It baffles me to no end why the average class weighted "homework" as upwards of 80% of a grade yet tests and other "closed book" measures of INDIVIDUAL skill were worth so little.

Oh wait, I know why... it's because dumb kids can't pass tests!

you seem to be missing the obvious points being stated here- and your rant about high achieving members of a society and those at the bottom that mooch off the productive members is a bit beyond the scope of what we're discussing here: something about classroom methodology and students acquiring tools to be efficient, effective, and productive thinkers and achievers.

I'm missing the point?

So far I've gathered that you set up "help groups" for the smart kids to teach the dumb kids and justified it by saying the smart kids learned some things too. And it's all OK because the dumb kids were brought up to the smart kid levels.

Is that right?

Typically, high achievers are rewarded with high grades and that tends to correlate at times with more successful career options, pay, and choices.

Yet when your grading system isn't based on actual knowledge and tools acquired but on how much "help" you've given out or "team participation" you've done, how can you possibly measure the true effectiveness of not only your teaching style, but your students' retention?

I'm a liberal (in most aspects) and I don't believe in giving everyone a "fair share" if they don't deserve it. I believe in hard work.

But, everyone deserves it, don't they?

Do the citizens of the state of Ohio get a refund for the resources wasted on prosecuting criminals? Restitution?

You mean the same citizens who dump a sh!tload of money putting criminals through an ineffective public school system where they learn the "team" mentality?

Of course not! Like most other things in life, we'll just keep throwing money at the problem and moving farther away all the while telling ourselves we're doing something about it.

[Zero Sum 305]

I see a pattern with slim. Every time he winds himself up with his own irrelevant arguments, he gets annoying and nitpicky with posts.

Most readers can address points one by one without the need to focus-focus.

Since he is now an expert at teaching methodologies, and can't miss any point as to how diverse teaching strategies include the use of peer learning in advancing not just underperforming students, but also top achievers, it is clear to me and likely anyone ever experienced in education in the past that he knows exactly what he's talking about, is not resentful, and never was (and is not now) an under-achiever.

Furthermore, he does not take things completely out of context and scope. No sir, he don't. He also does not extrapolate grading systems that are not used.

Conclusion: he knows more than the teachers.

[slim 1,530]

Conclusion: he knows more than the teachers.

What do they say, "those who can't do, teach?"