LA Workers Join Fierce Debate Over Immigration

[pedroh 21]

si!

[peejay 327]

Hey guys. Thanks for the personal attacks. It shows that I must have hit a raw nerve.

Anyway, I can see that you didn't read the rest of the article. So I will help you out some.

One oft-cited example is the janitorial field. The Service Employees International Union, which represents 1.8 million service workers in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico, has been highly successful in reorganizing janitors around the nation.

In Los Angeles, for instance, most janitors were unionized African Americans making middle-class wages until the mid-1980s, according to Mike Garcia, president of the SEIU's Local 1877, which covers California. But building owners and labor contractors broke the unions, replaced black janitors with largely undocumented workers from Mexico and Central America and drove wages down to the bare minimum with no benefits, he said.

In 1987, the union launched a "Justice for Janitors" campaign to reorganize the workers. After nearly two decades of aggressive tactics, the union represents 85% of Los Angeles janitors, compared with 20% when the campaign began, Garcia says. Union jobs pay $11 an hour with fully paid benefits, compared with $8 an hour before the union's strike in 2000, he says.

"Once you reorganize, wages rise for everybody: the documented and undocumented, native-born and immigrant," said Eliseo Medina, SEIU executive vice president.

Garcia said now that the union has negotiated higher wages, its largely Latino members are planning to seek contractual language guaranteeing African Americans at least 12% of janitorial jobs, reflecting their presence in the population, Garcia said. The hotel workers union last year negotiated similar guarantees for black workers.

Still, Garcia remains uneasy about the guest-worker program. "Employers are pushing for guest workers because they want to legalize low wages and no benefits," he said. "If employers pay decent wages, and if the country allows free and open unionization it will eliminate the need for immigrant labor."

What is the lesson boys and girls...Ronald Reagan's flooding of the labor market with illegals in the 1980's and the multitude of amnesties for them since then had the desired effect. I guess when the shoe is on the other foot it is like a swift kick to the cojones! What goes around comes around. One decade's amnestied illegals becomes another decade's future victims of this sick joke. Mighty nice that they are throwing a few crumbs back to the black folks that had these union jobs originally. I wonder what the latest amnesty / guest worker program will bring?

Eh Pedroh, maybe they should all go to college and get better jobs.

Latinos themselves are split on the issue. A Pew Hispanic Center poll last August found that 34% of American-born Latinos surveyed believed that illegal immigrants hurt the economy by driving down wages, compared with 55% who viewed them as an economic benefit by providing cheap labor. The survey found that 32% opposed a temporary-worker program, while 59% favored one.

Major unions back the proposal as a way to bring exploited workers out of the shadows to press for labor rights -- and union membership. Some union members, however, fret that business owners are using immigrants to drive down wages.

Richard Salinas, for instance, is a Los Angeles roofer with Local 36 of the United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers. A second-generation Mexican American, Salinas says many contractors are hiring nonunion laborers -- many of them undocumented immigrants -- for less than half the $30-an-hour union rate, no benefits and no scheduled wage increases. The idea of more guest workers worries him, he says.

"If they're just trying to get foreign cheap labor, I'm against that," Salinas says. "These [immigrants] are very hard-working people, but my concern is the wages and contractors turning to them instead of union shops."

Salinas' concerns are borne out by some research. Harvard University professor George J. Borjas, the nation's leading labor economist on immigration, has found that the immigrant influx between 1980 and 2000 lowered wages of American high school dropouts by 7.4%, for an annual loss of $1,800 on an income of $25,000. The effect was worse for native-born Latinos and blacks, he said. Overall, he found that all U.S. workers suffered a 3.7% wage decline.

"You can't have a huge increase in the labor supply without having an impact on the wage structure," said Cuban-born Borjas, adding that the data had turned around his original, more positive view of immigration.

"If one cares about the well-being of the less advantaged, having a guest-worker program to import hundreds of thousands of workers is a huge mistake," he said.

I guess not all Hispanics buy into MALDEF and La Raza's racial politics bullsh*t. Hey, I'm white and I don't buy George's bullsh*t either. At least when it comes to my bread and butter I look out for numero uno. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Nothing personal.

A little food for thought from an old fart that has seen this happen with his own eyes. And not just to janitors, the disadvantaged, or to the so-called jobs that Americans won't do!

[Nikita2Charles 32]

The whole system is not fair, We are living proof of it, my wife came here through all the normal channel legally. She's a software engineer, Can you imagine I fill out a job opening for a position that Match her profile, And the answer i Got

This position is reserved for an H1B applicant.

What kinda ####### is that" since the purporse of the H1B visa is to fill out a position where you can not find a local person or a us engineer to do it, but not even sure if it's Legal to have a position open specifically for a certain visa type.

Where's the equal opportunity? Here's it's favoring a certain class of people where the companies can bring people here by hiring them for lot less than they would pay a US engineer because those immigrant workers are depending on the companies for their Green Card sponsorship after the H1.

Just plain Sucks

[Satisfaction 1]

How is it that you guys don't believe anything Bush says, but yet many of you brand anyone that even considers a reduction in immigration to responsible levels as a xenophobic, racist, redneck, extremist? Do you believe for a second that Bush wants to bring all these immigrants to America because he loves them?

Peejay, I know where you are coming from with your comments and I don't want to reiterate (does VJ ban re-posting?). But tell me frankly why you're getting paranoid over this? Did you come here on the Mayflower?

Take a deep breath, PJ, the President so-called “guest worker” program that would afford temporary legal status to immigrants here illegally before eventually forcing them to return home is A JOKE.

(I can smell the rat poopoo too ) It's nothing but a revolving door to Mexico!

Polls indeed indicated that minorities do not favor legalization of illegal aliens. That's nothing new, really, and that's beside the point. On the other hand, extremists/white supremacists/neocons love to tackle the immigration issue as well for their own gain and purposes, and that I find disgusting...

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The whole system is not fair, We are living proof of it, my wife came here through all the normal channel legally. She's a software engineer, Can you imagine I fill out a job opening for a position that Match her profile, And the answer i Got

This position is reserved for an H1B applicant.

What kinda ####### is that" since the purporse of the H1B visa is to fill out a position where you can not find a local person or a us engineer to do it, but not even sure if it's Legal to have a position open specifically for a certain visa type.

Where's the equal opportunity? Here's it's favoring a certain class of people where the companies can bring people here by hiring them for lot less than they would pay a US engineer because those immigrant workers are depending on the companies for their Green Card sponsorship after the H1.

Just plain Sucks

Direct that question to the EEOC and quote the position and employer in question. Provide as much documentation as you can. I am quite certain the EEOC will be interested to know...

[pedroh 21]

How is it that you guys don't believe anything Bush says, but yet many of you brand anyone that even considers a reduction in immigration to responsible levels as a xenophobic, racist, redneck, extremist? Do you believe for a second that Bush wants to bring all these immigrants to America because he loves them?

Peejay, I know where you are coming from with your comments and I don't want to reiterate (does VJ ban re-posting?). But tell me frankly why you're getting paranoid over this? Did you come here on the Mayflower?

Take a deep breath, PJ, the President so-called “guest worker” program that would afford temporary legal status to immigrants here illegally before eventually forcing them to return home is A JOKE.

(I can smell the rat poopoo too ) It's nothing but a revolving door to Mexico!

Polls indeed indicated that minorities do not favor legalization of illegal aliens. That's nothing new, really, and that's beside the point. On the other hand, extremists/white supremacists/neocons love to tackle the immigration issue as well for their own gain and purposes, and that I find disgusting...

technically is a deportation.. not a 'return home and come back later amigo'!! if they get the work guest visa, they get deported and get a bar of 5 or 10 years... depending on the humor of USCIS...

also, its funny that the 2nd generation americans.. probably kids from illegal immigrants.. also get this attitude of 'no more illegals'.. being themselves probably kids from illegal aliens at a certain point too.. but this is always being like that.. people came from europe and killed some indians, then they said, no more immigration, now th 2nd generation descendant of illegals are again, no more immigration.. lololol

and yes satisfaction.. usually this articles and stuff like that come from right wing white supremacist sites or thinkers... telling how 'americans' are loosing ground to illegal and legal immigration, and of course.. altering the charts and stats of birth and growth population..

the clearest example.. these sites or people against immigration.. never count descendant of immigrants (and less if they aren't white) as americans.. they count '10 million american growth vs 20 million immigrant growth'.. im sorry but if 20 million kids were born from foreigners.. they are american too.. but, of course, they aren't from the white america that is loosing ground against imigrants and ayyy la tristeza..

[Peter Miami 0]

i agree..if there were no jobs there be less people coming across the border, until it is curtailed the flow continues..

True.

[Fandango 1,439]

The guy in the article may have a reason to be upset, but he lost me at his antics.

I'm all for taking care of 'your own' first, but at the end of the day...companies have the overwhelming task of creating a product for as cheap as possible. Unless consumers wouldn't mind paying more for something, it'll all come down to most cost-effective.

I resent the race card being played here, it has no place here...and the mock 'slave ship' in protest is completely out of line & insulting. This is a cost issue, not a race issue. And it demeans REAL race issues to have this card being played. It weakened the legitimacy of real racial issue, imo cos the race card gets overplayed so often.

I have a problem with illegals taking jobs...but if they are here legally & are willing to do the job for less money...more power to them. But if they are here legally, well then they deserve a right to make a living. We are all here from somewhere else, so we can't turn around and say 'you're not a REAL American' just because they were born somewhere else.

A manual job like that doesn't really require years of training & expertise, so if someone's willing to do the grunt work for less, then that's the determining factor.

Oh, and I'm against Equal Opportunity in the form of quotas....I think everyone should be viewed on merit & qualifications for the position...and it should have NOTHING to do with what race/ethnicity a person is. It shouldn't be used against someone, but it also shouldn't be a determining factor to help someone either. In a true color-blind society, it's a negligible factor.,

Edited February 24, 2006 by LisaD

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In a true color-blind society, it's a negligible factor.,

Question: Have you found the "true color-blind society" anywhere yet?

[almaty 19]

In a true color-blind society, it's a negligible factor.,

Question: Have you found the "true color-blind society" anywhere yet?

does not exisit anywhere at anytime

[Satisfaction 1]

I resent the race card being played here, it has no place here...and the mock 'slave ship' in protest is completely out of line & insulting. This is a cost issue, not a race issue. And it demeans REAL race issues to have this card being played. It weakened the legitimacy of real racial issue, imo cos the race card gets overplayed so often.

As far as I know, there were no slaves on the Mayflower ("The Mayflower was the ship which transported the Pilgrims from Plymouth, England to "North Virginia" (which later became part of the United States of America) in 1620, leaving Plymouth on September 6 and dropping anchor near Cape Cod on November 11"

You can read about someone like John Tanton and understand why the "race card" is being mentioned here. He is not someone who I wouldn't exactly qualify as "color-blinded".

That said, I have not stated that everyone who is opposed to the legalization of illegal aliens are racists. My concern is that the issue is too often being exploited by extremists.

[pedroh 21]

I resent the race card being played here, it has no place here...and the mock 'slave ship' in protest is completely out of line & insulting. This is a cost issue, not a race issue. And it demeans REAL race issues to have this card being played. It weakened the legitimacy of real racial issue, imo cos the race card gets overplayed so often.

As far as I know, there were no slaves on the Mayflower ("The Mayflower was the ship which transported the Pilgrims from Plymouth, England to "North Virginia" (which later became part of the United States of America) in 1620, leaving Plymouth on September 6 and dropping anchor near Cape Cod on November 11"

You can read about someone like John Tanton and understand why the "race card" is being mentioned here. He is not someone who I wouldn't exactly qualify as "color-blinded".

That said, I have not stated that everyone who is opposed to the legalization of illegal aliens are racists. My concern is that the issue is too often being exploited by extremists.

ZOMG! i just read about Tanton.. he's an animal.. he basically wants to spade all hispanics and afro-americans so we don't massively growth..

yes, th main problem with immigration is that the supremacists get all wacko.. and all the a-hole start following their BS statements about how "americans" (meaning white people only) are loosing power and jobs and etc etc.. agains the 'un-educable and corrupt hispanics'

[Fandango 1,439]

In a true color-blind society, it's a negligible factor.,

Question: Have you found the "true color-blind society" anywhere yet?

Of course I haven't...but using fake racial cards & racial quotas aren't going to get us there either imo.

I resent the race card being played here, it has no place here...and the mock 'slave ship' in protest is completely out of line & insulting. This is a cost issue, not a race issue. And it demeans REAL race issues to have this card being played. It weakened the legitimacy of real racial issue, imo cos the race card gets overplayed so often.

As far as I know, there were no slaves on the Mayflower ("The Mayflower was the ship which transported the Pilgrims from Plymouth, England to "North Virginia" (which later became part of the United States of America) in 1620, leaving Plymouth on September 6 and dropping anchor near Cape Cod on November 11"

You can read about someone like John Tanton and understand why the "race card" is being mentioned here. He is not someone who I wouldn't exactly qualify as "color-blinded".

That said, I have not stated that everyone who is opposed to the legalization of illegal aliens are racists. My concern is that the issue is too often being exploited by extremists.

I happen to agree with you, but I mentioned the racial card because of the guy in the article portraying himself & other protesters as slaves.

I never said that anyone opposed to legalization of illegal aliens is racist...that's not what I was getting at. My post was pretty much all over the map & just trying to put one cohesive post together while I was rushed...heh, perhaps I failed, but at the time, it made sense to me

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In a true color-blind society, it's a negligible factor.,

Question: Have you found the "true color-blind society" anywhere yet?

Of course I haven't...but using fake racial cards & racial quotas aren't going to get us there either imo.

That I can agree with. Like someone at my wife's workplace making a remark to the effect that it's not right that the furriners take jobs that (presumably African-) Americans would otherwise have. That was an "African"-American talking to my actually African wife. As if it is easier for my wife to secure the job than it would be for a Black American...