Socialism is self interest (Capitalism )

[Captain Oates 911]

I was born into a working class family, none of whom had gone to a good school right back through the centuries.

I was lucky enough to be born in socialist country and the socialist government gave me (yes GAVE me)

A Health. A Free health system with no qualifying period, contribution record, deductible, pre - existing conditions, annual limit, condition limit. I grew up tall and strong and healthy with no fear of sickness. I never paid a penny for health costs. Not one penny.

B Good schooling. I was schooled at a 'Grammar School' which was free. No weapons checks/drugs or fees.

C I got university training. I was working and the government gave me a grant to go to University and do Professional Training. I actually got a 25% raise compared to my wage and I worked tax free in the holidays

I got a subsidised house and subsidised training. I lived well off money from the tax payers.

Then I worked 30 years and paid tax. In my last year at work alone, I paid 10 times as much tax as my entire State subsidies had cost the taxpayers

What a fantastic investment of taxpayer's funds !

Why can't right wingers see that investing taxpayer money in health and education is actually an exercise in Capitalism in that it pays huge returns on the investment ?

We all know what the old days were like - illiterate 11 year kids up chimneys and health problems and few vacations and instant firing and discrimination. No pensions, no health care. Why do the right wing look back fondly on those days and want to bring them back ?

The right wing are actually acting in an anti- capitalist way because human capital is there for the grabbing at little cost and with a great return on investment - just like a new oil well or gold mine.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Obama 2012 1,714]

#1 your assertion on health care is untrue. That assertion only fits if you choose to buy insurance over paying for your own health care.

#2 I never had to worry about metal detectors in school either. Only in the 'hood' are such things a worry. Which this is attributed to different things than society.

#3 There is nothing wrong with the idea of socialism. The problem with true socialism, is it's not voluntary and goes against human nature. Socialism in its true form cannot work without communism because you are forcing people to do things/take part in things against their will. If sociaism were completely voluntary (which would have been possibly under the original founding of this country in certain states) then that's fine. Of course when you try and get everyone to pull their own weight, that's a completely different story.

[Captain Oates 911]

#1 your assertion on health care is untrue. That assertion only fits if you choose to buy insurance over paying for your own health care.

#2 I never had to worry about metal detectors in school either. Only in the 'hood' are such things a worry. Which this is attributed to different things than society.

#3 There is nothing wrong with the idea of socialism. The problem with true socialism, is it's not voluntary and goes against human nature. Socialism in its true form cannot work without communism because you are forcing people to do things/take part in things against their will. If sociaism were completely voluntary (which would have been possibly under the original founding of this country in certain states) then that's fine. Of course when you try and get everyone to pull their own weight, that's a completely different story.

I am talking of a 'social' style of government which collects tax and then distributes in a way that is certainly social engineering in that it seeks to promote a healthy and educated people by re-distribution

It isn't communism which seeks to 'direct' the economy and the population rather than offering them subsidies to head in a desirable direction

The American right wing thinks that the only legitimate reason to raise money through taxes is for military purposes and this is so short sighted as the population is wasting trillions with it's under-educated, unhealthy population who are chained to a 17% health tax in the form of private health/insurance. Other first world countries pay 7 or 8 % with more universal health provided so the right wing system is like a crippling tax.

Right wing politics is simplistic and doesn't see opportunities for everyone to gain

The benefits of compulsory communal sewers should have been enough evidence that social ways are of great benefit

[ONA 133]

You have to remember that something that works in one country will never work in another one... Cultures differ, mindset of people is different too.

I don't think 'social style government' is going to work in the USA, not yet at least.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I am talking of a 'social' style of government which collects tax and then distributes in a way that is certainly social engineering in that it seeks to promote a healthy and educated people by re-distribution

It isn't communism which seeks to 'direct' the economy and the population rather than offering them subsidies to head in a desirable direction

The American right wing thinks that the only legitimate reason to raise money through taxes is for military purposes and this is so short sighted as the population is wasting trillions with it's under-educated, unhealthy population who are chained to a 17% health tax in the form of private health/insurance. Other first world countries pay 7 or 8 % with more universal health provided so the right wing system is like a crippling tax.

Right wing politics is simplistic and doesn't see opportunities for everyone to gain

The benefits of compulsory communal sewers should have been enough evidence that social ways are of great benefit

Even that is not paid for with taxes.

It's not right wing vs left wing. It's personal responsibility vs. not.

A society that embraces social engineering/social welfare cradle to grave, does nothing to teach people about taking care of themselves.

There are plenty of problems with our society in a 'cost' factor, yes. Those factors have nothing to do with private insurance or lack of education in certain areas. They have a lot more to do with financial/corporate interests controlling the ball game.

[Captain Oates 911]

You have to remember that something that works in one country will never work in another one... Cultures differ, mindset of people is different too.

I don't think 'social style government' is going to work in the USA, not yet at least.

Many people say O is socialist

Many say Obama-care is socialism

and yet we have moved to it.....

We have Medicare and we have social security

It seems that over the last 100 years, the direction has been one way - a long slow slide to the left - with no interruptions to the process

I believe that this is because all our competitors are socialist and they are beating us and the US is slowly coming to the realization that enlightened social policies are actually cheaper and they are good for business

All Europe/China - they are all moving forward in terms of health and education and their health care is HALF the cost of ours - and Germans don't look sickly to me.

Right wing means high costs and an uncompetitive country with inferior human resources and enormous waste of talent

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Many people say O is socialist

Many say Obama-care is socialism

and yet we have moved to it.....

We have Medicare and we have social security

It seems that over the last 100 years, the direction has been one way - a long slow slide to the left - with no interruptions to the process

I believe that this is because all our competitors are socialist and they are beating us and the US is slowly coming to the realization that enlightened social policies are actually cheaper and they are good for business

All Europe/China - they are all moving forward in terms of health and education and their health care is HALF the cost of ours - and Germans don't look sickly to me.

Right wing means high costs and an uncompetitive country with inferior human resources and enormous waste of talent

You have no clue, do you?

If you're using medicare and SS as shining examples, you don't know ANYTHING about either program than and their failures.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

You have no clue, do you?

If you're using medicare and SS as shining examples, you don't know ANYTHING about either program than and their failures.

Their main "failure" was that they were so heavily borrowed from, they cannot support the large part of the population that is about to use them.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Sousuke

[Captain Oates 911]

You have no clue, do you?

If you're using medicare and SS as shining examples, you don't know ANYTHING about either program than and their failures.

All the polls show that Americans greatly value Social Security and Medicare and woe betide any politician who moves against them.

My wife's parents are about 80 years old and rely greatly on Medicare and social security. It gives them hope and dignity. The right wing want to get rid of both programs and give the money to the rich.

Imagine the situation then. Highly skilled workers staying at home to nurse and feed their elderly relatives. How does that help the economy ? Of course a REAL right winger would have a 'final solution' for that.

Americans do not regard those programs as failures - certainly not those who are old enough to remember what happened before

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Their main "failure" was that they were so heavily borrowed from, they cannot support the large part of the population that is about to use them.

Nor could they ever. At least not at the rate that they are paid into and the length of time they are used.

So many use them are their primary retirement, when it should really be a supplement if anything.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

All the polls show that Americans greatly value Social Security and Medicare and woe betide any politician who moves against them.

My wife's parents are about 80 years old and rely greatly on Medicare and social security. It gives them hope and dignity. The right wing want to get rid of both programs and give the money to the rich.

Imagine the situation then. Highly skilled workers staying at home to nurse and feed their elderly relatives. How does that help the economy ? Of course a REAL right winger would have a 'final solution' for that.

Americans do not regard those programs as failures - certainly not those who are old enough to remember what happened before

Seriously, shut up. Don't post that pertisan drivel and expect an actual response.

Social Security and medicare aren't paid from (well not supposed to be paid from) your normal 'income taxes' They have their own separate catagory in case you did not realize that. Not only that, anyone who works pays into it for their own benefit.

It's compeltely dishonest to say 'take money away and give to the rich' in this case right here.

Seriously, learn a little more about what you are talking about before posting that #######.

[Vi-Jay 218]

That Government would have to be truly interested in serving the people and only the people.

No corruption money?

Have you ever tried to take a bone from a Pitbull?

Additionally, the bigger the govt. teat gets the more control that govt. has over it's sucklings.

There would be no pretending as to why someone is running for office. To have more power over you and me.

Won't work and no, there isn't a Santa Claus either.

Sorry.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Vi-Jay

[The Dude 206]

Seriously, shut up. Don't post that pertisan drivel and expect an actual response.

Social Security and medicare aren't paid from (well not supposed to be paid from) your normal 'income taxes' They have their own separate catagory in case you did not realize that. Not only that, anyone who works pays into it for their own benefit.

It's compeltely dishonest to say 'take money away and give to the rich' in this case right here.

Seriously, learn a little more about what you are talking about before posting that #######.

Considering your posting history, it's quite ironic you lecturing someone about being dishonest.

Edited April 11, 2011 by The Dude

[Captain Oates 911]

Why should the US be the only first world country contemplating withdrawing health services and dignity in retirement to it's population ?

Indifference to the less fortunate is up to the individual - some people would step over a starving child and that part of the population will always exist and they never vote left.

The most christian first world country is also the only one with a significant part of the population that resents looking after it's own weak and sick and vulnerable. Strange but true.

However, I am not talking morally right or wrong as the immoral are unconvertible - I am saying that if the right wing thought it through, they would realise that investing tax money in people pays dividends and those dividends are not being harvested

[B_J 2,752]

Considering your posting history, it's quite ironic you lecturing someone about being dishonest.

Yeah... BUT Paul is the one making sense in this conversation.