Muslim women in UK may soon be offered burka-style hospital gowns

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

...I'm just not used to having religious beliefs dictate how I take care of myself...

In fairness, you wouldn't have to wear this gown. You can wear the traditional one if you want. I believe this gown is being offered as an option.

And how much will this option be costing an already burdened NHS?

Why worry about all that when you can just raise taxes?

[AnaAndDaniel 0]

and it looks like it will keep you warmer too. i hate feeling cold.

Daniel

:energetic:

[Veiled Princess 1]

I think it's that to a Muslim woman, whose religious belief system forms her everyday life, right down to what she wears, it's probably a big deal to her to not be able to wear all the coverings that she feels necessary to protect the men in her life and community (based on VP's explanation of the reasoning behind it). I guess then where do you draw the line and say, sorry men, you're just going to have to deal with seeing my face/whatever body part is exposed; so that I can get the care that I need?

That really depends on the woman I think. Personally, if you're in the US... it's quite easy (or at least has been in my experience) to request all female doctors and nurses. Most scholars also agree that, in a matter of health, if all you can find is a man to help you then it's OK Some women don't agree with that I guess.

I, for one, would not die because I'm so afraid of a male doctor to treat me. I would, however, have my husband with me, if available, to watch him and make sure he doesn't do anything wrong.

Edited September 5, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[Alex+R 0]

I want this option. My friends still tease me about when they visited me in the hospital and I was so drugged up I didn't realize I was flashin them my em, backside.

If it gets more people in the hospital when they need to be, it's a good idea.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I, for one, would not die because I'm so afraid of a male doctor to treat me. I would, however, have my husband with me, if available, to watch him and make sure he doesn't do anything wrong.

What if the doctor doesn't do wrong, but your husband, presumably not medically trained, thinks he did? What should he do?

[Traviesa 0]

I think it's that to a Muslim woman, whose religious belief system forms her everyday life, right down to what she wears, it's probably a big deal to her to not be able to wear all the coverings that she feels necessary to protect the men in her life and community (based on VP's explanation of the reasoning behind it). I guess then where do you draw the line and say, sorry men, you're just going to have to deal with seeing my face/whatever body part is exposed; so that I can get the care that I need?

That really depends on the woman I think. Personally, if you're in the US... it's quite easy (or at least has been in my experience) to request all female doctors and nurses. Most scholars also agree that, in a matter of health, if all you can find is a man to help you then it's OK Some women don't agree with that I guess.

Understood. I have one final question for you, more of a general question. I assume that if you were to say, expose yourself in front of a man, whether on purpose or by accident, you are considered to have "sinned" (although I don't know what you would call it-probably the same concept, different word). So, since nobody is perfect, you rack up a set of sins in your life, right... Where do the ideas of grace/repentance come in? Like what can you do, if anything, to clear your record?

[Veiled Princess 1]

I, for one, would not die because I'm so afraid of a male doctor to treat me. I would, however, have my husband with me, if available, to watch him and make sure he doesn't do anything wrong.

What if the doctor doesn't do wrong, but your husband, presumably not medically trained, thinks he did? What should he do?

What I am referring to are those doctors who have had sex with their patients after putting them to sleep for some procedure or touched them inappropriately... I am not ashamed of letting my husband protect me.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

... touched them inappropriately... I am not ashamed of letting my husband protect me.

But how is a man who is not medically trained to know what type of 'touching' is necessary and what is inappropriate?

I understand there are behaviors that are clearly inappropriate, like if the doctors ####### came out of his pants during surgery. What I'm more curious about are the seeming grey areas where a reasonable non-medically trained person may see the doctor do something and reasonably wonder if its appropriate or not.

[iceyspots 0]

I didn't know a hospital was a religious place

It's not, but if the current gowns keep some Muslim women from getting the care they need, isn't it worth it?

I guess so. I just don't see many other religious groups not going to the hospital because of their religious views. Other than those who believe that God will miraculously heal them, of course.

oooh! Like the magic healing water??

[anya-D 8]

I think it's a good idea to have it as the "option" for those who might like to use it. And if it makes people feel more comfortable to take care of their health then that's a good idea.

[MrsWhizz 0]

I think it's a good idea to have it as the "option" for those who might like to use it. And if it makes people feel more comfortable to take care of their health then that's a good idea.

Feather pillows and Bon-Bons would make me more comfortable, but I don't see that being an option anytime soon!

[Veiled Princess 1]

Understood. I have one final question for you, more of a general question. I assume that if you were to say, expose yourself in front of a man, whether on purpose or by accident, you are considered to have "sinned" (although I don't know what you would call it-probably the same concept, different word). So, since nobody is perfect, you rack up a set of sins in your life, right... Where do the ideas of grace/repentance come in? Like what can you do, if anything, to clear your record?

OK, let me begin this with a disclaimer... I do not represent every muslim (or the majority) here on VJ... anything I answer is from my understanding of Islam and should not be construed to presume that I am speaking on anyone elses behalf

From my understanding... if you commit a sin out of ignorance (you don't know it's a sin), on accident (you forgot it was a sin or it was outside of your control) OR you were forced to do it then there is no blame on you and you won't (God willing) be punished for it.

As far as repentance... any sin can be forgiven with the exception of one (if you die upon commiting that sin and do not repent before you die) and that is to associate partners with God/Allah. I believe, in Islam, we are encouraged to seek a balance between fearing God and hoping for His mercy.

God/ Allah tells us many times in His book (the Quran) that He is the Most Merciful (How I understand that is meaning He is the one who has the most mercy with regards to His creation [us] than any other). It is recorded that our prophet said that out of the 100 parts (100%) of mercy, Allah sent one part (1%) down to us on earth and that is the mercy that a mother feels for her baby (she cares for it no matter what because it is helpless and depends on her completely) and kept the other 99 parts (99%) for Himself on the day of judgement to have on us. (If I am understanding this hadith correctly). To me, that is a lot of mercy for Him to have on us and I can't even begin to imagine how much that is.

It was also recorded that our prophet taught that if you commit some sin, then the angel who records your bad deeds will hold his pen for 6 hours (I think), giving you time to repent without having that deed recorded at all --it never happened. You can, at any time though, repent to God for any sin and hope for His mercy to forgive that sin and choose not to punish you for it in either this life or the next.

In the end it is completely up to God as to what He will forgive or not... all we can do is follow Him and obey Him and hope for His mercy.

There is no concept of 'saved' in my understanding of Islam, like in christianity--if that's what you were asking.

[Traviesa 0]

Thanks for explaining, and you're right, I wasn't talking about the concept of saved; I simply was referring to the method by which sins are forgiven, so one may enter the kingdom of Heaven upon death. You answered that very thoroughly, thanks!

[Veiled Princess 1]

... touched them inappropriately... I am not ashamed of letting my husband protect me.

But how is a man who is not medically trained to know what type of 'touching' is necessary and what is inappropriate?

I understand there are behaviors that are clearly inappropriate, like if the doctors ####### came out of his pants during surgery. What I'm more curious about are the seeming grey areas where a reasonable non-medically trained person may see the doctor do something and reasonably wonder if its appropriate or not.

If the doctor touched me in some way that was uncomfortable and did not explain why he needed to touch me that way then I would expect my husband to say something to him. Presumably, if my husband is in the room with me, he wouldn't even try it Even my gyno (a woman) walks me through the same process every year explaining how and why for every touch, without me asking.

[Traviesa 0]

Even my gyno (a woman) walks me through the same process every year explaining how and why for every touch, without me asking.

That's one of the great things about women gynos...my gyno does the exact same thing (also without my asking). I think it's great to have someone so sensitive and patient!