Who Are These People We Are Fighting For?

[Danno 1,228]

Koran Burning And Muslim Persecution Of Christians—Who Are These People We Are Fighting For?

By Patrick J. Buchanan

On March 20, Pastor Terry Jones, who heads a congregation of 30 at his Dove World Outreach Center church in Gainesville, Fla., conducted a mock trial of the Quran "for crimes against humanity."

Pronouncing Islam's sacred book guilty, Jones soaked a Quran in kerosene and set it ablaze in a portable fire pit.

Few noticed. But Hamid Karzai did.

On March 24, the president of Afghanistan, our presumed ally in the war with al-Qaida and the Taliban, condemned this "crime against the religion and the entire Muslim nation," called on the United States to bring Jones to justice and demanded "a satisfactory response to the resentment and anger of over 1.5 billion Muslims around the world."

Thus the firebrand here is not just Jones, who perpetrated the sacrilege, but Karzai, who made certain his countrymen knew what happened 10,000 miles away and four days before.

Friday, after prayers in Mazer-e-Sharif, a mob, inflamed by imams denouncing Jones, descended on the U.N. compound. When they left, seven U.N. employees lay dead, two reportedly beheaded.

President Obama denounced Jones' "act of extreme intolerance and bigotry," and added that "to attack and kill innocent people in response is outrageous and an affront to human dignity and decency."

Gen. David Petraeus deplored the Quran-burning as "hateful, disrespectful and enormously intolerant."

Still, on Saturday, rioters waving Taliban flags and shouting "Death to America" and "Death to Karzai" went on a rampage in Kandahar that ended with nine Afghans dead and 80 injured when they tried to march on the U.N. compound and security troops fired on them.

Three more were killed Sunday as riots continued in Kandahar and spread to Jalalabad. Forty more suffered gunshot wounds.

Petraeus then met with Karzai, who issued a new statement demanding that "the U.S. government, Senate and Congress clearly condemn (the Rev. Jones') dire action and avoid such incidents in the future."

In short, our ally seized this opportunity to rub America's nose in what the Rev. Jones did, as though the U.S. government, whose highest civilian and military officials had condemned Jones, is morally culpable for not preventing his Quran-burning and not punishing him for it.

Nor is this sufficient. Henceforth, the U.S. government is to police its citizenry to ensure no such anti-Islamic sacrilege takes place again.

Intending no disrespect, who do these people think they are?

Undeniably, it was an incendiary insult to a religion professed by almost a fourth of the world's people for Jones to do what he did. But what does this murderous reaction to a book-burning tell us about the people for whose right of self-determination Americans are fighting and dying in Afghanistan?

Candidly, it affirms what we already knew.

Many Afghans believe beheading or stoning is the right response to an insult to Islam. And not only that. Five years ago, Abdul Rahman, an Afghan convert to Christianity, faced the death penalty for apostasy and was forced to flee his own country.

In some Muslim countries, death is the prescribed punishment for Muslims who convert, for Christians who seek converts and for any who insult Islam, like that Danish cartoonist who sketched a caricature of the Prophet with a fused bomb for a turban.

Stoning is also seen as proper punishment for women who commit adultery.

In Pakistan recently, the governor of Punjab and the Cabinet minister for religious minorities, both Catholics, were assassinated. Why? Both had opposed a law under which a Christian woman had been sentenced to death after some farmhands accused her of blasphemy.

The governor was murdered by his own bodyguard, who was then hailed by 500 religious scholars who urged all Muslims to boycott the governor's funeral ceremony, as he had gotten what he deserved.

In the last two years, Christians have been burned alive by Muslims in Gorja, Pakistan, and by Hindu extremists in Orissa, India. Christian churches have been torched and scores of the faithful massacred on holy days in Iraq and Egypt. Few of these atrocities have received the media attention of the Rev. Jones' stupid stunt or the Danish cartoonist's irreverent scribbles.

Before America sends more of her sons to die for the freedom of Arabs and Muslims, perhaps we ought to have a better idea of what these folks intend to do with that freedom. For across that Muslim world, the faith that created our world, Christianity, is being persecuted and in some sectors annihilated.

To neocons and liberal interventionists, the goal of U.S. foreign policy should be to use our wealth and power to advance freedom until the whole world is democratic. Only then can we be secure.

But if democracy means rule by the people, ought we not to inquire a little more closely what it is these people, down deep, really want, before we bleed and bankrupt ourselves to win it for them?

Maybe Hosni Mubarak had a point.

http://vdare.com/buchanan/110404_who_we_fighting.htm

[sandinista! 1,816]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan29.html

http://buchanan.org/blog/why-are-they-at-war-with-us-3458

Pat Buchanan knows better than this- he's written so before.

Millions of Muslims in Chad have not rioted or harmed anyone in light of Terry Jones. Neither have tens of thousands of Muslims in Singapore, millions of Muslims in Thailand, or millions of Muslims in Azerbaijan. But then none of those places have the context of 10 years of American airstrikes blowing their kids to smithereens either. Wrong as what's happened in Afghanistan, attributing this outbreak of violence to "because they're Muslim" is ridiculous, and Pat knows it.

[Danno 1,228]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan29.html

http://buchanan.org/blog/why-are-they-at-war-with-us-3458

Pat Buchanan knows better than this- he's written so before.

Millions of Muslims in Chad have not rioted or harmed anyone in light of Terry Jones. Neither have tens of thousands of Muslims in Singapore, millions of Muslims in Thailand, or millions of Muslims in Azerbaijan. But then none of those places have the context of 10 years of American airstrikes blowing their kids to smithereens either. Wrong as what's happened in Afghanistan, attributing this outbreak of violence to "because they're Muslim" is ridiculous, and Pat knows it.

BUt we are not sending American troops to die in Singapore or Thailand nor Azerbaijan,

The point is, the very place that heads are being cut off is the same place we are fighting to give these people their freedom.... the question is: The freedom to do what?

[Amby 490]

BUt we are not sending American troops to die in Singapore or Thailand nor Azerbaijan,

The point is, the very place that heads are being cut off is the same place we are fighting to give these people their freedom.... the question is: The freedom to do what?

Have a head

[sandinista! 1,816]

Yeah, clearly I know that there are no American troops in Azerbaijan or Singapore, hence why I wrote that none of those places have the context of their women and children being pulverized by US airstrikes the way

Afghanistan does. IE, it's very telling that none of those places has erupted in violence and murder, even though they have populations of Muslims who are just as Muslim as afghans are. Pat's laying the blame for it on their Muslim-ness though, and it's a misguided blame. He knows better than that, as evidenced in the previous columns he's written, that I linked to. He's having a senior moment today I guess.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yeah, clearly I know that there are no American troops in Azerbaijan or Singapore, hence why I wrote that none of those places have the context of their women and children being pulverized by US airstrikes the way

Afghanistan does. IE, it's very telling that none of those places has erupted in violence and murder, even though they have populations of Muslims who are just as Muslim as afghans are. Pat's laying the blame for it on their Muslim-ness though, and it's a misguided blame. He knows better than that, as evidenced in the previous columns he's written, that I linked to. He's having a senior moment today I guess.

Or he's just dishonest about what he really believes

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Pronouncing Islam's sacred book guilty, Jones soaked a Quran in kerosene and set it ablaze in a portable fire pit.

What's next on this pastor's list? Finding tanks, missiles, bombs, guns and knives guilty of crimes against humanity?

Here I'm always told that objects don't kill but people do. But apparently that isn't so if the object happens to be a book. Because books most certainly kill. We should just burn them all. How about that?

[mawilson 2,133]

Who Are These People We Are Fighting For?

We are not "fighting for" these people. We're maintaining a military presence in their country to prevent them from fighting us.

we are fighting to give these people their freedom

That's not what we're doing.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

It is always a bit surreal to read posts by those who claim most Muslims don't sympathize with Radical Muslims (when they can simultaneously barely admit Radical Muslims exist) parrot the Radical Muslim talking point "it's your fault we act like this."

[Danno 1,228]

What's next on this pastor's list? Finding tanks, missiles, bombs, guns and knives guilty of crimes against humanity?

Here I'm always told that objects don't kill but people do. But apparently that isn't so if the object happens to be a book. Because books most certainly kill. We should just burn them all. How about that?

Are you really equating knives, guns to inspirational written material?

Very few people claim "Their gun told them to do it".

It's more likely a Koran or bible told them to do it and they used a gun to carry it out. (and that's not automatically a bad thing)

Edited April 6, 2011 by Danno

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Let's see where this wave of revolution that's hitting the Middle East is going.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110405/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_rising_islamists;_ylt=Am2ZjoCbBmIVllJq303PuRwLewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTJ2c2w5b25wBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwNDA1L21sX2VneXB0X3Jpc2luZ19pc2xhbWlzdHMEcG9zAzEEc2VjA3luX3BhZ2luYXRlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDaXNsYW1pc3RzbG9v

Islamists look for gains in Egypt's freer politics

AIRO – Islamic hard-liners, some of them heavily suppressed under three decades of Hosni Mubarak's regime, are enthusiastically diving into Egypt's new freedoms, forming political parties to enter upcoming elections and raising alarm that they will try to lead the country into fundamentalist rule.

Some militants, taking advantage of a security vacuum, aren't waiting for the political process. They have attacked Christians and liquor stores, trying to impose their austere version of Islamic law in provincial towns.

The Islamists' newfound energy prompted the ruling military to warn on Monday that Egypt "will not be turned into Gaza or Iran."

Islamists could fare well in parliamentary elections scheduled for September, especially if the various groups run on a unified ticket. Their chances are boosted by the disarray among other groups. Traditional opposition parties were deeply restricted under Mubarak's 29-year rule and have no popular base to speak of. The liberal youth groups behind the 18-day uprising that forced Mubarak to step down on Feb. 11 are still scrambling to organize before voting day.

The Islamists, furthermore, are well funded and organized. The most established fundamentalist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, has years of experience in contesting elections.

Liberals and leftists, including the youth activists who led the protest uprising against Mubarak, are caught between their stance that all sides must be allowed to enter the political game if Egypt is to be a real democracy and worries whether Islamists will play by the rules.

"I think there is too much Islamophobia," Khaled Abdel-Hameed, one youth leader, said of fears of Islamists hijacking the process. "Everyone is trying to hijack the revolution, including me. If people elect religious groups, I will respect their choice."

Another activist, Mustafa al-Nagar, is more concerned.

"I am worried most about the Salafis because they are not accustomed to politics," said al-Nagar, who campaigns for Mohamed ElBaradei, a Nobel Peace laureate and potential candidate in presidential elections due in November. "Their main concern is to exclude anyone else."

While the Brotherhood has long been Egypt's best organized opposition movement, the Salafis are a new player in politics. Salafis are ultraconservatives, close to Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi interpretation of Islam and more radical than the Brotherhood. They seek to emulate the austerity of Islam's early days and oppose a wide range of practices they view as "un-Islamic" — rejecting the treatment of non-Muslims as citizens with equal rights as well as all forms of Western cultural influence.

Salafis traditionally stayed out of politics, rejecting democracy because it replaces rule by God's law with the law of man. The movement grew in recent years because it was tolerated and even encouraged by the Mubarak regime to counter the Muslim Brotherhood.

With Mubarak gone, the Salafis have abandoned their disdain for politics.

Yasser Moutwaly, a Salafi leader in the Mediterranean city of Alexandria, told The Associated Press that the movement planned to set up its own party, though he insisted that entering politics would not mean abandoning its principles.

He said the Salafis and the Muslim Brotherhood were engaged in preliminary contacts over the possibility of "coordination" in the parliamentary elections.

Another contender is the Gamaa Islamiya, or the "Islamic Group," a militant organization that fought the Mubarak regime in a bloody insurgency in the 1990s, seeking to establish an Islamic state in Egypt. It has a base of support in southern Egypt, particularly in the city of Assiut, and is conducting internal elections to create provincial and consultative councils nationwide.

Ominously, the group forced two of its veteran leaders — Karam Zohdi and Nageh Ibrahim — to resign amid criticism that they sold out to authorities when they agreed to abandon violence to win their release after serving long jail terms.

Islamists are already showing their confidence.

In Assiut, which has a sizable Christian minority, Islamists wrested control of mosques from government preachers, installing their own imams and prayer leaders. The city is filled with signs exhorting residents to follow Islamic teachings and women to wear the hijab, or headscarf. "The hijab is obligatory," one sign says. "Take your eyes off women," another chides men.

A recent rumor that Salafis planned to attack female Muslim students at Assiut University who don't wear the headscarf, prompted some women to stay away from the 75,000-student campus for a day.

Salafis, who reject the veneration of religious shrines and tombs as a sign of idolatry, are believed to be behind the destruction of at least five Muslim shrines in the Nile Delta region the past week.

They are also blamed for attacks on Christians and others they don't approve of. In one attack, a Christian man had an ear cut off for renting an apartment to a Muslim woman thought to be involved in prostitution; in another a Muslim was killed for allegedly practicing magic, which ultra-conservatives denounce, a security official said.

In the oasis province of Fayoum southwest of Cairo, Salafis have forced the closure of four cafes that serve alcohol. They also set fire to four Christian homes in a Fayoum village, prompting clashes with residents, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to share the information with the media.

Salafis have also threatened to destroy some of the most revered shrines in Cairo, dedicated to members of Prophet Muhammad's immediate family and beloved by many more Muslims.

A Salafi spokesman, Abdel-Monaim al-Shahat, insisted that the attacks on shrines were isolated acts. "We don't approve of having shrines in mosques, but we also reject their destruction," he said.

But Egypt's top mainstream cleric, the grand sheik of Cairo's Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's foremost seat of learning, warned the shrine threats could lead to violence between Muslims.

"Blood will be knee-deep," Ahmed al-Tayeb said. He called on al-Azhar scholars, seen as the defenders of moderation, to take on the "extremists" in ideological debates.

Maj. Gen. Mukhtar al-Mallah, a member of the military's Supreme Council which has ruled Egypt since Mubarak's ouster, told newspaper editors in an interview Monday that the army "will not allow extremist groups to take over Egypt."

He expressed his concern about the actions of the Salafis, but also said no groups can be excluded from the political scene, "whether they are Wahhabis, Salafis, Muslim Brotherhood or Christians.

Because of the Mubarak regime's heavy restrictions on the opposition and widespread fraud at past elections, it has been long been impossible to judge Islamists' true popular support.

The Muslim Brotherhood, which was banned under Mubarak but ran candidates as independents, made its best showing in 2005, when it won a fifth of the legislature's seats. Now, the Brotherhood is in the process of creating its own party, a satellite television station and a daily newspaper to promote its message. Its leaders estimate they would win around 30 percent of the legislature's seats. They say they will not field a presidential candidate.

A referendum last month provided an early exercise for Islamists at the polls. The Brotherhood and Salafis pushed hard for a "yes" vote on a raft of constitutional amendments, some of them claiming that it would be a "yes" for Islam. Many liberal protest leaders opposed the amendments, saying they wanted greater changes. The amendments passed handily, by 70 percent.

But the results give hints of a realistic measure of the Islamists' weight.

Out of 45 million eligible voters, 14 million voted "yes." But the majority of those approved the changes because they saw the limited amendments as bolstering stability, not because they support the Brotherhood or the Salafists. That, some analysts argue, suggests that the religious groups' core support ranks in the several millions and that the bulk of the electorate is not in their camp or up for grabs.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110406/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_syria;_ylt=ApEu6_G.n2M8_rUHUHYDPzILewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTJlZzVndnEyBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwNDA2L21sX3N5cmlhBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9wYWdpbmF0ZV9zdW1tYXJ5X2xpc3QEc2xrA3N5cmlhcmV2ZXJzZQ--

Syria reverses ban on Islamic face veil in schools

CAIRO – Syria closed the country's only casino Wednesday and reversed a decision that bans teachers from wearing the Islamic veil — moves seen an attempt to reach out to conservative Muslims ahead of calls for pro-democracy demonstrations.

Syrian activists have called for fresh demonstrations on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday to honor more than 80 people killed in a crackdown on protests that erupted nearly three weeks ago.

President Bashar Assad's decisions Wednesday were unusual concessions to religious concerns in Syria, which promotes a strictly secular identity.

The recent protests, however, have brought sectarian tensions into the open as thousands of people took to the streets calling for democracy in a country where Alawites — a branch of Shiite Islam that represents just 11 percent of the population — have been in power for nearly 40 years. The country is overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim.

Assad banned the niqab, the full Islamic face veil that reveals only a woman's eyes, in July as part of his campaign to mute sectarian differences. Hundreds of primary school teachers who were wearing the niqab at government-run schools were transferred in June to administrative jobs, angering many conservative Muslims.

On Wednesday, Ali Saad, the education minister in the Syria's caretaker government, said the teachers were now allowed to return to their jobs, according to the state-run news agency, SANA. He added that the ministry would discuss any new application by any teacher willing to go back to her work.

The billowing black robe known as a niqab is not widespread in Syria, although it has become more common recently — something that has not gone unnoticed in a country governed by a secular regime.

Also Wednesday, the Syrian state-run newspaper Tishrin reported that Casino Damascus has been closed because the practices of the club's owners that "violate laws and regulations." It did not elaborate.

Observant Muslims consider casino betting, lottery participation and sports betting to be particularly un-Islamic.

The recent unrest in Syria, which exploded nationwide three weeks ago, is a new and highly unpredictable element of the Arab Spring, which has seen popular uprisings in countries including Egypt, Tunisia and Yemen.

The unrest could have implications well beyond Syria's borders, given the country's role as Iran's top Arab ally and as a front line state against Israel.

On Wednesday, Human Rights Watch called on Assad to order Syrian security forces to stop using "unjustified lethal force against anti-government protesters."

"For three weeks, Syria's security forces have been firing on largely peaceful protesters in various parts of Syria," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Instead of investigating those responsible for shootings, Syria's officials try to deflect responsibility by accusing unknown 'armed groups.'"

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Buchanan incorrectly stated that both bumped-off Pakistani officials were Catholics.

While Shahbaz Bhatti (late Minorities Minister) was indeed Catholic (and had "tweeted" that he expected to be seeing Jesus soon shortly before his death), late Punjab (province) governor Salman Taseer was a half-English (mum's side) Shimla-born mohajir, by definition Pakistani Muslim whose native language is Urdu and who migrated at Partition from an area now in India (incorrect definition also includes their Pakistan-born descendants such as MQM supremo Altaf Hussein), the same ethno-religious group as Pervez Musharraf, Aslam Beg and A.Q. Khan.

[Danno 1,228]

We are not "fighting for" these people. We're maintaining a military presence in their country to prevent them from fighting us.

That's not what we're doing.

You sir are not listening to our leaders closely enough.

Their access to democracy and freedom hinges on our security (or so we are told).

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

You sir are not listening to our leaders closely enough.

Their access to democracy and freedom hinges on our security (or so we are told).

I hope that post was sarcasm. Our leaders are full of sh*t 99% of the time.