Republcans embrace Obamacare without calling it that...

[Obama 2012 1,714]

What use is the medical industry if you can't afford to use it? I have what would be called "Cadillac" insurance and I still need a medical savings account to cover everything that isn't paid by the insurance. Between my outrageous premiums, which my employer pays more than half of, and my savings account I put out over $800/month for medical coverage. I still have to be very careful when going to the doctor because a lot of things are not covered and I get stuck with the bill. It is total BS.

You have an industry overburdened by many things. Changing the way we pay won't do much to fix that at all.

That's part of the problem with Obamacare. It tries to change the way we pay and what is covered and WHO is covered, but does nothing to address the actual costs. If anything (as we've already started to see) it causes costs to rise. They are only going to continue to get worse so long as everything else in the industry stays the same.

Take pharmaceuticals for example. Obamacare gave them a free pass. Gave them a monopoly in the system and we will be stuck with their high costs. The BS part about it, is that most of these drugs were created based off government grants to begin with and we still pay the piper on them. That's just one small example of many.

Medical malpractice and what comes along with it. I'm not just talking the the lawsuits and the insurance costs either. The new equipment that is constantly updated because it's .05% more accurate than last years model, the 'risk' factor charge by doctors in certain fields, etc..

There are many factors that get ignored or hindered even worse when congress refuses to look at that side of things and spends time swaying public opinion by demonizing an industry who has bare minimum in profit margins. An industry that without them, we'd be in a lot worse shape than we are now at the end of the day. I don't like them and loathe them in many ways as well, but it's still a service that's very much necessary until the main factors are addressed.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Are you willing to kill an entire industry, just for a single payer system in this country?

Yes. Maintaining this industry only makes sense if it adds value. If it does not, and I don't see that it does, then it is only a drag on the economy. If we could bring health care spending in line with the rest of the developed world, then that would free up hundreds of billions of dollars to benefit productive sectors of the economy. Employers would receive more relief from such a move than from any tax cut package that is discussed. Labor cost would be reduced dramatically in this country changing the equation that corporations look at when deciding where to expand their production. The US would be a more business friendly place.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Yes. Maintaining this industry only makes sense if it adds value. If it does not, and I don't see that it does, then it is only a drag on the economy. If we could bring health care spending in line with the rest of the developed world, then that would free up hundreds of billions of dollars to benefit productive sectors of the economy. Employers would receive more relief from such a move than from any tax cut package that is discussed. Labor cost would be reduced dramatically in this country changing the equation that corporations look at when deciding where to expand their production. The US would be a more business friendly place.

How much are we willing to ultimately sacrifice for drastic changes though like this?

You're still killing hundreds of thousands to millions of jobs (depending on how deep we're talking) in this action. Sure some of them will be recovered elsewhere, but no where near all of them.

The health care industry is a HUGE chunk of our economy. It's so deeply ingrained (unfortunately) that big changes lead to big initial consequences.

In the long run, perhaps the single-payer would work and maybe it wouldn't. On the scale it has to be in this country, we honestly have no idea. I'm sure worried about the initial big picture and what it would do to our economy.

[JohnSmith2007 353]

You have an industry overburdened by many things. Changing the way we pay won't do much to fix that at all.

That's part of the problem with Obamacare. It tries to change the way we pay and what is covered and WHO is covered, but does nothing to address the actual costs. If anything (as we've already started to see) it causes costs to rise. They are only going to continue to get worse so long as everything else in the industry stays the same.

Take pharmaceuticals for example. Obamacare gave them a free pass. Gave them a monopoly in the system and we will be stuck with their high costs. The BS part about it, is that most of these drugs were created based off government grants to begin with and we still pay the piper on them. That's just one small example of many.

Medical malpractice and what comes along with it. I'm not just talking the the lawsuits and the insurance costs either. The new equipment that is constantly updated because it's .05% more accurate than last years model, the 'risk' factor charge by doctors in certain fields, etc..

There are many factors that get ignored or hindered even worse when congress refuses to look at that side of things and spends time swaying public opinion by demonizing an industry who has bare minimum in profit margins. An industry that without them, we'd be in a lot worse shape than we are now at the end of the day. I don't like them and loathe them in many ways as well, but it's still a service that's very much necessary until the main factors are addressed.

Apples and oranges. Obamacare is worse than what we have now. And that is saying something. I am not disputing that. Given the choice between Obamacare and what we had before I would choose what we had before. If we go to single payer all the problems you are citing will be relieved. The medical industry isn't the problem. The potential care we can have is top notch. The way it delivered is the problem. With insurance companies in the mix it makes thing more difficult to keep costs down. Sure there will be problems with single payer. We are, after all, talking about our government running things. At least we can exercise some control over the government through elections. With insurance companies it is a take it or leave it deal.

[rika60607 215]

Yes! Yes! Kill the industry that is 1) useless and can be done without perfectly well, 2) uses up paper (killing trees) and other resources and 3) wastes time of the patients (it takes a long time to fix it when something goes wrong, claims declined by mistake, HMO authorizations gone amiss)

In France, it is essentially a single payer system, with electronic filing for claims (you just carry a card, much like a credit card).

But of course, the question of why medical services are soo freaking expensive in the US is most important and was never really addressed by Obamacare.

Are you willing to kill an entire industry, just for a single payer system in this country?

The 'idea' always sounds nice in up in the thought cloud, but on paper, you'd be creating hell to an industry that's so deeply embeded in the way it is, you'd cause unemployment to soar and a decline in health care for quite awhile while the system recovers.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Are you willing to kill an entire industry, just for a single payer system in this country?

Let it die! People live too long anyways. Time to cull the herd.

[The Dude 206]

You haven't said one intelligent thing yet in posting the last couple of days.

Of course this is typical from people like you. It's easy for you to come in and use a smart ####### comment and walk away than it is for you to actually debate. You feel it increases your ####### size by telling someone off, but unless you can support yourself in your arguments, I would suggest shutting the hell up.

You can now pick up your tail, turn around, and walk right back out the door.

Kthx.

Just because you don't have the requisite comprehension level to actually debate these topics doesn't mean I haven't posted anything intelligent. Your deficiencies are not my problem. You haven't offered up anything intelligent on these boards, period. Your penchant for bombastic statements with no logic or thought is well known. I'm sorry that your lack of education has rendered you in this state, but that is not my problem.

ETA: The fact that you support the health insurance companies should be a good indicator of this.

Edited April 5, 2011 by The Dude

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Just because you don't have the requisite comprehension level to actually debate these topics doesn't mean I haven't posted anything intelligent. Your deficiencies are not my problem. You haven't offered up anything intelligent on these boards, period. Your penchant for bombastic statements with no logic or thought is well known. I'm sorry that your lack of education has rendered you in this state, but that is not my problem.

ETA: The fact that you support the health insurance companies should be a good indicator of this.

Dude, you're a troll.

All you did is walk into this thread, insult me and leave.

So until you have something intelligent to say as I said, get the hell out and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh and my alleged 'support' for the insurance companies isn't support for them at all. I've never once said "oh how I love BCBS and they are perfect." I would suggest that you go back and read what I've been saying over the months and year about profit margins, how they function, etc. and then maybe just maybe you can see that there's a huge difference in supporting insurance companies WHO PROVIDE A SERVICE than actually 'supporting' them. I am just sick of people like you who don't have a damn clue what the insurance industry does. No one if FORCING YOU to use them at all. So the next time you want to blame them for your problems, look to Obamacare who is now going to force you to use them in the next couple of years. Then maybe, just maybe you will have something to squak about.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Apples and oranges. Obamacare is worse than what we have now. And that is saying something. I am not disputing that. Given the choice between Obamacare and what we had before I would choose what we had before. If we go to single payer all the problems you are citing will be relieved. The medical industry isn't the problem. The potential care we can have is top notch. The way it delivered is the problem. With insurance companies in the mix it makes thing more difficult to keep costs down. Sure there will be problems with single payer. We are, after all, talking about our government running things. At least we can exercise some control over the government through elections. With insurance companies it is a take it or leave it deal.

No they won't. That's the point. It would take legislative changes for that to happen.

You can't magically cure the ills of an industry just by the way you pay for it. You are still paying for it and the reasons for higher costs have been stated partially in this thread as well.

Remember you are also creating a scenario of throwing millions of people onto a system that is already overburdened in many areas (some more, some less than others). Your supply is going to be short while your demand is high. That won't do much to help costs either.

Of course the health care lobbyists needs to get out of congress and out of universities as well where we can make it easier and more affordable to train new doctors for the industry as well.

How we pay for health care at the end of the day is not the biggest issue we have to worry about.

[The Dude 206]

Dude, you're a troll.

All you did is walk into this thread, insult me and leave.

So until you have something intelligent to say as I said, get the hell out and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Oh and my alleged 'support' for the insurance companies isn't support for them at all. I've never once said "oh how I love BCBS and they are perfect." I would suggest that you go back and read what I've been saying over the months and year about profit margins, how they function, etc. and then maybe just maybe you can see that there's a huge difference in supporting insurance companies WHO PROVIDE A SERVICE than actually 'supporting' them. I am just sick of people like you who don't have a damn clue what the insurance industry does. No one if FORCING YOU to use them at all. So the next time you want to blame them for your problems, look to Obamacare who is now going to force you to use them in the next couple of years. Then maybe, just maybe you will have something to squak about.

Troll? Seriously, who here is a troll? Who among us has said over the top statements that defy logic, or any metric of reasonable intellect? You are the one who makes foolish statements like "There are no rules of war". Education Paul, it is the key to the future.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

How much are we willing to ultimately sacrifice for drastic changes though like this?

You're still killing hundreds of thousands to millions of jobs (depending on how deep we're talking) in this action. Sure some of them will be recovered elsewhere, but no where near all of them.

The health care industry is a HUGE chunk of our economy. It's so deeply ingrained (unfortunately) that big changes lead to big initial consequences.

In the long run, perhaps the single-payer would work and maybe it wouldn't. On the scale it has to be in this country, we honestly have no idea. I'm sure worried about the initial big picture and what it would do to our economy.

If it doesn't add value, it doesn't need to exist. Why should consumers, businesses and health care providers suffer under this inefficient, expensive and fragmented insurance system that hasn't delivered what it needs to deliver: an efficient and cost saving alternative to government run health insurance schemes. It ain't working, that much is clear. Why carry along this dead weight?

If you're all concerned about the jobs and the companies and whatnot, here's how you can preserve some of it: Design single payer health insurance for a tightly defined, medically neccessary range of health care services. People then have the option to purchase supplemental insurance for things that are not essential and hence not covered by the single payer but that they would want to obtain coverage for anyways. This is a large piece of the overall health care cost, I would imagine. Private insurers will come up with coverage options. Let them handle that while delivering essential health care coverage at reasonable cost to all Americans through a single payer scheme.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Mr. Big Dog

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Troll? Seriously, who here is a troll? Who among us has said over the top statements that defy logic, or any metric of reasonable intellect? You are the one who makes foolish statements like "There are no rules of war". Education Paul, it is the key to the future.

I'm not the one randomly coming into threads and insulting people without any type of rebuttle.

There are no 'rules' in war either. You really think a precious doctrine changes things? Please. The moment yuo set boundaries for yourself in war is the moment you leave yourself vulnerable and lose. You can have all the big guns in the world, but they are meaningless unless you are willing to use them. The two atomic bombs we dropped during WWII should teach you that. Let's be honest, those are very much against your precious 'rules' of war.

When you have something to add to this thread though in ACTUAL DEBATE on health care, let us know.

Otherwise, you're just wasting space.

[The Dude 206]

I'm not the one randomly coming into threads and insulting people without any type of rebuttle.

There are no 'rules' in war either. You really think a precious doctrine changes things? Please. The moment yuo set boundaries for yourself in war is the moment you leave yourself vulnerable and lose. You can have all the big guns in the world, but they are meaningless unless you are willing to use them. The two atomic bombs we dropped during WWII should teach you that. Let's be honest, those are very much against your precious 'rules' of war.

When you have something to add to this thread though in ACTUAL DEBATE on health care, let us know.

Otherwise, you're just wasting space.

There you go again Paul, doubling down on the stupid, rather than acknowlede your misconception. I'll let someone like Charles educate you about rules of war.

On the topic at hand, I would address it, but you have yet to offer anything worthy of a response. The health insurance companies are the problem, not a symptom of it. To clarify, I think the same of the tax "industry".

[Obama 2012 1,714]

If it doesn't add value, it doesn't need to exist. Why should consumers, businesses and health care providers suffer under this inefficient, expensive and fragmented insurance system that hasn't delivered what it needs to deliver: an efficient and cost saving alternative to government run health insurance schemes. It ain't working, that much is clear. Why carry along this dead weight?

If you're all concerned about the jobs and the companies and whatnot, here's how you can preserve some of it: Design single payer health insurance for a tightly defined, medically neccessary range of health care services. People then have the option to purchase supplemental insurance for things that are not essential and hence not covered by the single payer but that they would want to obtain coverage for anyways. This is a large piece of the overall health care cost, I would imagine. Private insurers will come up with coverage options. Let them handle that while delivering essential health care coverage at reasonable cost to all Americans.

That's the key though at the end of the day isn't it?

What is a 'reasonable' cost for health care.

A doctor's office is a business at the end of the day. They have regular bills for electricity, water, employees, property insurance, rent, etc. That's every day expenses. Now let's talk about expensive machinery, keeping certain expensive drugs on hand, normal drugs on hand, disposable items, sanitary items, malpractice insurance, etc.

All of those things add up REAL QUICK for an individual doctor. It's part of the reason why the private practice is becoming a thing of the past. Many doctors try to combine efforts into 'family clinics' where you have a few doctors and each have their staff under one roof and share equipment costs, etc. They each still have their individual costs though as well.

This not even mentioning that some of them want to make great money as well.

You can take health insurance out of the equation all you want, but at the end of the day there are great costs in becoming a doctor and maintaining and up-to-date functioning office/hospital, etc.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

There you go again Paul, doubling down on the stupid, rather than acknowlede your misconception. I'll let someone like Charles educate you about rules of war.

On the topic at hand, I would address it, but you have yet to offer anything worthy of a response. The health insurance companies are the problem, not a symptom of it. To clarify, I think the same of the tax "industry".

Why are you even posting in this thread then? You just admitted you're here to troll....