Stossel: No Group Has Had More Gov't Help Than American Indians

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I wonder how long Hitler would have needed to occupy Poland and France before they would have conceded it was rightly a part of an expanded Germany?

Yes Gary and why-me in the past people did some amazingly horrible things, heck they still do, but simply abrogating treaties is not something done lightly. Some day you may want someone else to trust you...

The status quo is fine with me.

If Hitler STILL occupied Poland, it would STILL be part of Germany. He does not because someone kicked him out by force. We STILL occupy north America so it is STILL ours. Is the concept of reality so difficult to understand?

This is all just mamby pamby feel good blah, blah, blah. If Indians dfo not like their way of life, they can change it.

It seems many are basing their opinion (of treaty rights) on what seems fair or not fair rather that the law that supports it.

Or on reality.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Good news for the Indians. I guess they can look forward to another few hundred years of prosperity thanks to the white man's courts.

why would anyone be against them being free and independent?

They are free, sovereign, and even independent. Your biggest problem is you have a miopic POV that all Native Americans are in the same boat, have uniform issues etc. They don't although many issues are similar from tribe to tribe.

Their sovereignty underscores the validity of the treaties, thus underpinning the 99% taken by force and by peaceful agreement. At today's prices I can't recommend renegotiating those original deals. The tribes wouldn't need federal government dollars though, the only thing your idea would be right about if we just cancelled the treaties.

Indians live all kinds of ways of life Gary.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

They are free, sovereign, and even independent. Your biggest problem is you have a miopic POV that all Native Americans are in the same boat, have uniform issues etc. They don't although many issues are similar from tribe to tribe.

Their sovereignty underscores the validity of the treaties, thus underpinning the 99% taken by force and by peaceful agreement. At today's prices I can't recommend renegotiating those original deals. The tribes wouldn't need federal government dollars though, the only thing your idea would be right about if we just cancelled the treaties.

Indians live all kinds of ways of life Gary.

Really? You mean just like people? Your comments are racist and offensive.

Indians are just as capable of having fulfilling lives without the Federal Government as I am. I believe in their ability to function on their own. Some people think they "need" something from the Feds, even a piece of paper to say they are free and independent.

[rika60607 215]

Gary, it was you who suggested that Indians should stop accepting payments from the government (because they are detrimental to them) and take what they want. I was only trying to show to you, that this line of thought does not lead anywhere. Past is gone and Indians can not take what's theirs or what they want. You did not think it through.

But of course, I also understand that you did not want them to "take instead of being given". You wanted them to adjust and be like every other white American is. Well, it is not up to you or any other white American to decide, right? You believe in personal freedom and responsibility, so why all of a sudden you have a strong opinion about what others should be doing?

I do not have a property I have nothing to give up. And I never suggested you go back where you came from. As well, I am sure Indians would not mind me staying

I think you do not have any Indian friends. Years ago I had the same opinion as you (oh what's the big deal, past is gone and why can't we all be equal, blacks and whites and Native Indians and all). I changed my mind after learning more. May be one day you will, too. I had no white guilt and I have no white guilt now. So no, whatever I do or don't do in regards to Indians will not make me feel better, as I do not feel bad to begin with

I am sure you and Rika will feel better if you just pack your belongings, notify the local Indian tribe they can have your property and go back where your ancestors came from. Unless you do that, you are just blowing smoke.

Not that I really care. You imagine anything will change?

The Indians can adjust to life in 21st Century North America or remain dependent on handouts.

Regarding the above, they can adjust (many do) and they can enjoy their rightful payments as long as government is willing to pay. Once the government is not willing to pay, there is not much they can do anyway. Also, you seem to think that ALL Indians receive some kind of payments. Not all of them do. Many who adopted white lifestyle live without using any perks.

Edited March 28, 2011 by rika60607

[rika60607 215]

Why not?

If I sell someone the Brooklyn Bridge for payments of $10 per month forever, are they obligated to pay?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Really? You mean just like people? Your comments are racist and offensive.

Indians are just as capable of having fulfilling lives without the Federal Government as I am. I believe in their ability to function on their own. Some people think they "need" something from the Feds, even a piece of paper to say they are free and independent.

My children are Native American Gary. Trying to insinuate your comments are enlightened and mine are racist is pretty much insane. Read my comments on this thread. Read yours.

It Is not racist to insist the Federal government honor it's treaties. I personally know Native American lawyers, judges, police officers, firefighters, US military veterans, teachers, in short a vast array of successful, independent professionals. All with Treaties in place, how? Hard work and desire to succeed like any other American. I also have a vast knowledge of my childrens Tribal history as well as general Tribal history to say nothing of contemporary status. Your suggestion we just cancel the Treaties and cease living up to the economic and legal obligations they put in place as an instant fix to the historical problems Federal management has created is not really a new idea, nor is it an enlightened one.

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

Really? You mean just like people? Your comments are racist and offensive.

Indians are just as capable of having fulfilling lives without the Federal Government as I am. I believe in their ability to function on their own. Some people think they "need" something from the Feds, even a piece of paper to say they are free and independent.

not as easily as you think. i've personally heard racist comments about native americans while tdy to oklahoma, just because one or two of them was seen in the parking lot of the hotel my unit was staying at for that trip.

[Dakine10 5,452]

Indians are just as capable of having fulfilling lives without the Federal Government as I am. I believe in their ability to function on their own. Some people think they "need" something from the Feds, even a piece of paper to say they are free and independent.

Native Americans have the same constitutional rights as any other US citizens. They also have rights granted by universal treaties such as the Jay treaty for example, that give them many freedoms you and I don't have. They also have specific treaty rights as members of a self governing tribe, and the ability to choose how to avail themselves to those rights.

I'm not sure why you equate limiting someones ability to choose with "freedom and independance".

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Native Americans have the same constitutional rights as any other US citizens. They also have rights granted by universal treaties such as the Jay treaty for example, that give them many freedoms you and I don't have. They also have specific treaty rights as members of a self governing tribe, and the ability to choose how to avail themselves to those rights.

I'm not sure why you equate limiting someones ability to choose with "freedom and independance".

Most federally recognized Native Americans live off their reservation, but those who do don't have the same constitutional rights as other Americans. The constitution governing tribal lands is different than ours.

I've used the Jay Treaty for free passage into Canada without inspection on several occasion when visiting St. Regis.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Here is info about the Cobell Trust that I've been mentioning. It is pertinent to the topic and the history re why some federally recognized tribes have been stunted in their development. Not all tribes have been impoverished by their federal affiliation.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Clarification in bold:

Most federally recognized Native Americans live off their reservation, but those who do live on federally dependent tribal lands don't have the same constitutional rights as other Americans. The constitution governing tribal lands is different than ours.

I've used the Jay Treaty for free passage into Canada without inspection on several occasion when visiting St. Regis.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Really? You mean just like people? Your comments are racist and offensive.

Indians are just as capable of having fulfilling lives without the Federal Government as I am. I believe in their ability to function on their own. Some people think they "need" something from the Feds, even a piece of paper to say they are free and independent.

Gary, despite your delusions, you don't live a free and independent (from the federal government) life. I find it hillarious, and ironic that you so flippantly bandy about the term racist. Maybe you should take a look at your own posts, both the content and tenor before tossing that term out so much.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

As the government goes broke...and it's in big time debt right now, hand outs will be getting thinner and thinner. Eventually all the Fed Aid will start to dry up. When that happens let the crying begin.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Really? You mean just like people? Your comments are racist and offensive.

Indians are just as capable of having fulfilling lives without the Federal Government as I am. I believe in their ability to function on their own. Some people think they "need" something from the Feds, even a piece of paper to say they are free and independent.

Of course they need a little "something from the Feds" as do other "minority races" for the fact we are required by law to pay for everyone else in this country that isn't "Caucasian". This just goes to show that those other races can't wipe their own ####### without help from the white man. It's sad and pathetic, not to mention I find it terribly racist.

[Dakine10 5,452]

Most federally recognized Native Americans live off their reservation, but those who do don't have the same constitutional rights as other Americans. The constitution governing tribal lands is different than ours.

I understand that. What I'm saying is an individual member of the tribe has that choice.