Apple under fire for allowing app that 'cures' homosexuality

[Dan and Judy 614]

Im still hoping for a group hug!! I want Charles, fishdude and Why me right in the middle. Ahh heck Madame Cleo are you out there

let's do it

[Ban Hammer 13,487]

Well first off - I'd dispense with the 'us' seeing as there are only two people in this converation.

But sure, let's talk about incest between so-called consenting adults and how it differs from homosexual relationships. It seems to me that there are two inherent assumptions in your argument.

First - adult incest is analogous to homosexuality

No. Incest has a completely different impact on the family dynamic than homosexuality does. If you're gay - you may have to deal with social prejudice and the disapproval of family members, but it doesn't fundamentally change the interpersonal dynamic of the family unit - your father is still your father, even if he hates you.

In an incestuous relationship the roles played by family members radically changes - for example, the father is both the father and the lover of his daughter. Altering the roles played by family members damages the traditional nurturing function of the family - in this case because the daughter is sexually objectified by her father. Because of this - homosexuality (and yes, gay marriage) do not set a precedent for legalising adult incest.

that in bold seems quite similar to the incest relationship. heck, part of has played out here on vj! while i don't see how homosexuality/gay marriage sets a precedent for legalizing adult incest, there are similarities that can't be ignored - in essence, if both are adults, why should anyone be legislating/passing judgment?

Second - it is possible to give consent in incestuous relationships.

I'd say this is false too. In the example of the Columbia professor - he is both the father of his daughter and her lover. It seems to me that a person doesn't just wake up one morning and suddenly decide that they like the look of their daughter and want to give her a good pounding. What that suggests is that the relationship between the father and the daughter was never normal - and that there may well have been some sort of abuse (whether it be physical, sexual, psychological or emotional) going back many years - perhaps even before the daughter was of legal age.

That raises questions as to the legitimacy of the consent - and as we know, merely being of legal age does not mean a person is able to give legal consent if a person is deemed to be not of sound mind.

It goes back to the idea that the incestuous relationship between the professor and his daughter (and I'd say in most forms of incest) is an unequal relationship where one party, likely the father, has power and dominance over his daughter.

By contrast, homosexuality is (usually, not always - though this holds true for heterosexual relationships too) an equal relationship between two parties. An incestuous relationship, specifically between a parent and child can never be equal.

whether there was any abuse is pure conjecture. why bother to entertain that without any facts? as for legitimacy of consent, as long as drugs and alcohol are not involved and the individual isn't deemed incapacitated by the state, who is really to judge whether they can give consent or not?

while i don't have any hard facts on homosexual relationships being an equal relationship between two parties, i wouldn't be surprised if in fact that isn't quite the case in a significant percentage of those relationships. elton john, for one example, isn't with someone his own age and economic standing, is he?

if you get right down to it, anytime there is a significant age difference between the partners, there will often be some form of inequality.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It's a reasonable conjecture.

How would you explain how a person goes from loving father to father lover? That doesn't happen spontaneously - do you think he saw her hair in the moonlight and decided he loved her more than a daughter? Its not going to happen unless the relationship between the two of them was unconventional to start with.

Yes I said there is inequality in gay and heterosexual relationships. I also said that the relationship between a father who has incest with his daughter will ALWAYS be unequal, there is no way it can't be. The father - daughter dynamic is totally undermined by incest.

[Ban Hammer 13,487]

ummm ya thanks charles.

gotcha!

[Ban Hammer 13,487]

It's a reasonable conjecture.

How would you explain how a person goes from loving father to father lover? That doesn't happen spontaneously - do you think he saw her hair in the moonlight and decided he loved her more than a daughter? Its not going to happen unless the relationship between the two of them was unconventional to start with.

Yes I said there is inequality in gay and heterosexual relationships. I also said that the relationship between a father who has incest with his daughter will ALWAYS be unequal, there is no way it can't be. The father - daughter dynamic is totally undermined by incest.

reasonable conjecture, sure. it's also possible there wasn't any abuse. there's always the possibility too that the parent was never part of that child's life, divorce rates and all that, ya know.

i guess we'll just have to disagree on what two consenting adults are capable, due to blood.

[Dan and Judy 614]

. elton john, for one example, isn't with someone his own age and economic standing, is he?

This has been bothering me for a while. I heard Ted Nugent's marriage is on the rocks. Maybe we could fix em up together.

[Ban Hammer 13,487]

This has been bothering me for a while. I heard Ted Nugent's marriage is on the rocks. Maybe we could fix em up together.

i'm not sure who's music would suffer the most outta that union.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The word you are looking for here is nuance. That is, being able to recognise that there are differences (both subtle and fundamental) between one issue and another.

Presumably the recognition that incest is illegal led you to the conclusion that my objection to incest is based purely on legality. It isn't.

In fact, to address the issue of consent we don't even need to go to crazy extremes like incest. Student-teacher relationships are frowned upon, (regardless of whether the student is of the age of consent) as are relationships between managers and subordinates.

So all adults should be restricted by law based on what you say is crazy?

Company policies are one thing, laws are another.

I hope your not talking about the diapers, watermelon and Justin Bieber wig.

I am talking about what two (or more) consenting adults do in their bedroom.

[Dan and Judy 614]

So all adults should be restricted by law based on what you say is crazy?

Company policies are one thing, laws are another.

I am talking about what two (or more) consenting adults do in their bedroom.

Give Me watermelon or give me death!!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So all adults should be restricted by law based on what you say is crazy?

Company policies are one thing, laws are another.

Adults are restricted by law. That's a fact of daily life.

[Danno 1,228]

It's a reasonable conjecture.

How would you explain how a person goes from loving father to father lover? That doesn't happen spontaneously - do you think he saw her hair in the moonlight and decided he loved her more than a daughter? Its not going to happen unless the relationship between the two of them was unconventional to start with.

Yes I said there is inequality in gay and heterosexual relationships. I also said that the relationship between a father who has incest with his daughter will ALWAYS be unequal, there is no way it can't be. The father - daughter dynamic is totally undermined by incest.

How does the brother-brother relationship fit into your thinking?

Is the older one the power broker?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I'm seeing a trend here. The guys who married RUB women tend to be extremely heterosexual.

[Danno 1,228]

I'm seeing a trend here. The guys who married RUB women tend to be extremely heterosexual.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How does the brother-brother relationship fit into your thinking?

Is the older one the power broker?

Not necessarily. However, the context of the conversation was quite specific

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'm seeing a trend here. The guys who married RUB women tend to be extremely heterosexual.

Every day!

But I don't care a whit what someone else does in their bedroom.