French airplanes over Libya

[_Simpson_ 250]

Tomcat memories. But at least the pilots would wave in my case.

LOL I think Americans do the same with Americans.

When we arent complaining about the school systems.

Regardless it a two way road and there is no need to defend the French. They hate us as much as we hate them.

Edited March 21, 2011 by _Simpson_

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

A crystal ball wasn't necessary to see that Bush and Blair were full of schitt.

[Zero Sum 305]

When we arent complaining about the school systems.

Regardless it a two way road and there is no need to defend the French. They hate us as much as we hate them.

It might be better to not act like an idiot, attacking just to do so. An eye for an eye makes the world a blind place.

Hate is a strong term. Very few French people, in my experience, have ever expressed hatred of Americans. Its perhaps a bit of exaggeration on your part?

[_Simpson_ 250]

I think you are trying to equate two different scenarios. I do not assume we need UN approval for everything, so do not put words where they do not belong. The first case (Iraq) it can be very clearly identified that the information was false- either fabricated or faulty (believe what you want to believe on that one); and with the second the information was quite clear. Which is why GOP senators like Graham and McCain have been so vocal about wanting action.

Think about Russia on this case. Internal politics in Russia dictate that leaders must show a strong hand in order to keep their population satisfied. This is why the Russians did not exercise their veto power over the UN resolution.

I am not equating the two. I'm just pointing out that I dont feel we need the UN's stamp of approval for a action like this to be justifiable. Now considering that Saddam tried to make us believe he had WMDs and that the intelligence we had came from several countries I believe that it was faulty not fabricated info. Also Saddam had committed crimes against his people to.

I dont believe for a second that Russia's intentions here are honorable. I believe that the gov. wants to be able to stand back and criticize all the while not getting there hands dirty. Russia has it out for the US and if you have any doubt try watching Russia Today.

[_Simpson_ 250]

A crystal ball wasn't necessary to see that Bush and Blair were full of schitt.

Nobody knew for sure so quit it with that nonsense.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I didn't believe it. Noone I know believed it either.

Nor was I surprised by what happened. A drunken monkey could have predicted it.

Edited March 21, 2011 by fishdude

[_Simpson_ 250]

It might be better to not act like an idiot, attacking just to do so. An eye for an eye makes the world a blind place.

Hate is a strong term. Very few French people, in my experience, have ever expressed hatred of Americans. Its perhaps a bit of exaggeration on your part?

I have heard plenty of stories of how Americans are treated differently when they go to France but hey it must be our fault were just big fat arrogant slobs. Whats the amount of American people you've been around compared to French?

I didn't believe it. Noone I know believed it either.

Nor was I surprised by what happened. A drunken monkey could have predicted it.

You happened to be right but to not have any doubt at that time in history would have made you a fool regardless to what you believed because there was no clear cut answers.

[Amby 490]

I have one French friend who tried for Sooooo many years to get a B visa. He loves USA and lives in Alabama

[Zero Sum 305]

I am not equating the two. I'm just pointing out that I dont feel we need the UN's stamp of approval for a action like this to be justifiable. Now considering that Saddam tried to make us believe he had WMDs and that the intelligence we had came from several countries I believe that it was faulty not fabricated info. Also Saddam had committed crimes against his people to.

I dont believe for a second that Russia's intentions here are honorable. I believe that the gov. wants to be able to stand back and criticize all the while not getting there hands dirty. Russia has it out for the US and if you have any doubt try watching Russia Today.

Fair enough, its your perspective, and one that while clearly important to the 'justification' aspect, is one quite open to debate in another topic. It still brings up the question of counting on prior international justifications for a war that had very different exposures to the campaign that is quite visible now. And that is very noticeable in how you try to equate them.

As I said, if Russia wanted to act out against this UN Resolution, they would have vetoed it. They have that right as part of the UN Security Council. They did not.

But saying they have an enema with a US Flag is pretty silly and reminiscent of a Cold War mentality that hasn't yet caught on to update to the times. Russian news cater to Russians, and they are trying to clamor to older times when they had actual international influence that actually rivaled our own. Now its a different story, and even though in Russia I am very sure there are segments of the population that feel a need to seek out new and old enemies to make themselves validated in terms of the history they have had in the past (its called not being able to let go of the past).

[Zero Sum 305]

I have heard plenty of stories of how Americans are treated differently when they go to France but hey it must be our fault were just big fat arrogant slobs. Whats the amount of American people you've been around compared to French?

You happened to be right but to not have any doubt at that time in history would have made you a fool regardless to what you believed because there was no clear cut answers.

That is a pretty silly question don't you think?

In France, you are around the French. In America, you are mostly around Americans.

But yes, perhaps something about the image that *some* of us put out abroad has more to do about what we actually show the world than with the interpretation they may formulate about us as a *whole*. There's some statistical inference to this if you care to notice it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I have heard plenty of stories of how Americans are treated differently when they go to France but hey it must be our fault were just big fat arrogant slobs. Whats the amount of American people you've been around compared to French?

You happened to be right but to not have any doubt at that time in history would have made you a fool regardless to what you believed because there was no clear cut answers.

There were clear cut answers at the time. Bush/Blair tried to conceal them (badly)

[Zero Sum 305]

Can we steer this back to Libya?

[There is evidence the CIA tried to warn the White House and the Brits about what was actually NOT going on in terms of WMDs in Iraq. This was ignored. That is not faulty intel, that is ignoring intel. And its also a separate topic.]

[_Simpson_ 250]

Fair enough, its your perspective, and one that while clearly important to the 'justification' aspect, is one quite open to debate in another topic. It still brings up the question of counting on prior international justifications for a war that had very different exposures to the campaign that is quite visible now. And that is very noticeable in how you try to equate them.

We made a mistake. We believed faulty intelligence plain and simple. Most Americans agree. I hope we learned something from it. The American people were not just standing by letting Bush and Powell do as they please. The Bush administration spent a lot of time making their case for the war in Iraq. They had to because were not warmongers regardless to what your French friends have told you. That on top of what we learned from 9/11. A important one being that you cant wait for the threat to come to your front door before taking action.

As I said, if Russia wanted to act out against this UN Resolution, they would have vetoed it. They have that right as part of the UN Security Council. They did not.

You give the Russian government to much credit.

But saying they have an enema with a US Flag is pretty silly and reminiscent of a Cold War mentality that hasn't yet caught on to update to the times. Russian news cater to Russians, and they are trying to clamor to older times when they had actual international influence that actually rivaled our own. Now its a different story, and even though in Russia I am very sure there are segments of the population that feel a need to seek out new and old enemies to make themselves validated in terms of the history they have had in the past (its called not being able to let go of the past).

Seriously try watching Russia Today. I posted a video a few threads down.

Edited March 21, 2011 by _Simpson_

[Zero Sum 305]

They had to because were not warmongers regardless to what your French friends have told you.

A bit dramatic are we?

Please return to those posts where I summarily generalize the entire US population. I don't, right?

As for "The Bush administration spent a lot of time making their case for the war in Iraq." They obviously did. Read up here- only 6 pages.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RS21696.pdf

The Russians did what they did, and didn't do what they didn't do. Its not an issue of credit or nonesuch. If they had some kind of agenda, as you imply, they would have acted on it. But I do agree with you... those Russian media outlets were like watching FNC during the Bush Administration.

[_Simpson_ 250]

That is a pretty silly question don't you think?

In France, you are around the French. In America, you are mostly around Americans.

But yes, perhaps something about the image that *some* of us put out abroad has more to do about what we actually show the world than with the interpretation they may formulate about us as a *whole*. There's some statistical inference to this if you care to notice it.

So in a nutshell Americans deserve what they get and we Americans need to quit picking on the French.