Saudi girl school fire dress code

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT

Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.

According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them".

The father of one of the dead girls said that the school watchman even refused to open the gates to let the girls out.

"Lives could have been saved had they not been stopped by members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice," the newspaper concluded.

Relatives' anger

Families of the victims have been incensed over the deaths.

Most of the victims were crushed in a stampede as they tried to flee the blaze.

The school was locked at the time of the fire - a usual practice to ensure full segregation of the sexes.

The religious police are widely feared in Saudi Arabia. They roam the streets enforcing dress codes and sex segregation, and ensuring prayers are performed on time.

Those who refuse to obey their orders are often beaten and sometimes put in jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

[Amby 490]

2002?

[Dan and Judy 614]

Apr 13, 1919:

The Amritsar Massacre

Previous Day April 13 Calendar Next Day In Amritsar, India's holy city of the Sikh religion, British and Gurkha troops massacre at least 379 unarmed demonstrators meeting at the Jallianwala Bagh, a city park. Most of those killed were Indian nationalists meeting to protest the British government's forced conscription of Indian soldiers and the heavy war tax imposed against the Indian people.

A few days earlier, in reaction to a recent escalation in protests, Amritsar was placed under martial law and handed over to British Brigadier General Reginald Dyer, who banned all meetings and gatherings in the city. On April 13, the day of the Sikh Baisakhi festival, tens of thousands of people came to Amritsar from surrounding villages to attend the city's traditional fairs. Thousands of these people, many unaware of Dyer's recent ban on public assemblies, convened at Jallianwala Bagh, where a nationalist demonstration was being held. Dyer's troops surrounded the park and without warning opened fire on the crowd, killing several hundred and wounding more than a thousand. Dyer, who in a subsequent investigation admitted to ordering the attack for its "moral effect" on the people of the region, had his troops continue the murderous barrage until all their artillery was exhausted. British authorities later removed him from his post.

The massacre stirred nationalist feelings across India and had a profound effect on one of the movement's leaders, Mohandas Gandhi. During World War I, Gandhi had actively supported the British in the hope of winning partial autonomy for India, but after the Amritsar Massacre he became convinced that India should accept nothing less than full independence. To achieve this end, Gandhi began organizing his first campaign of mass civil disobedience against Britain's oppressive rule

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-amritsar-massacre

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What's so "goodie" about it?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

More old news, the Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire of 1911:

Leap for Life, Leap of Death

275 girls started to collect their belongings as they were leaving work at 4:45 PM on Saturday. Within twenty minutes some of girls' charred bodies were lined up along the East Side of Greene Street. Those girls who flung themselves from the ninth floor were merely covered with tarpaulins where they hit the concrete. The Bellevue morgue was overrun with bodies and a makeshift morgue was set up on the adjoining pier on the East River. Hundred's of parents and family members came to identify their lost loved ones. 146 employees of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company were dead the night of March 25, 1911. The horror of their deaths led to numerous changes in occupational safety standards that currently ensure the safety of workers today.

At the time of the fire the only safety measures available for the workers were 27 buckets of water and a fire escape that would collapse when people tried to use them. Most of the doors were locked and those that were not locked only opened inwards and were effectively held shut by the onrush of workers escaping the fire. As the clothing materials feed the fire workers tried to escape anyway they could. 25 passengers flung themselves down the elevator shaft trying to escape the fire. Their bodies rained blood and coins down onto the employees who made it into the elevator cars. Engine Company 72 and 33 were the first on the scene. To add to the already bleak situation the water streams from their hoses could only reach the 7th floor. Their ladders could only reach between the 6th and 7th floor. 19 bodies were found charred against the locked doors. 25 bodies were found huddled in a cloakroom. These deaths, although horrible, was not what changed the feelings toward government regulation. Upon finding that they could not use the doors to escape and the fire burning at their clothes and hair, the girls of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company, aged mostly between 13 and 23 years of age, jumped 9 stories to their death. One after another the girls jumped to their deaths on the concrete over one hundred of feet below. Sometimes the girls jumped three and four at a time. On lookers watched in horror as body after body fell to the earth. "Thud -- dead; thud -- dead; thud -- dead; thud -- dead. Sixty-two thud -- deads. I call them that, because the sound and the thought of death came to me each time, at the same instant," said United Press reporter William Shephard. The bodies of teenage girls lined the street below. Blankets that would-be rescuers used ripped at the weight and the speed the bodies were falling. Fire Department blankets were ripped when multiple girls tried to jump into the same blanket. Some girls tried to jump to the ladders that could not reach the ninth floor. None reached the ladders. The fire escape in the rear of the building collapsed and trapped the employees even more.

Many people were outraged at the tragedy. The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire helped to solidify support for workers' unions like the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union. The owners, Isaac Harris and Max Blanck, were tried for manslaughter but were acquitted in 1914. Though most people were disgusted with what had happened, there were no regulations in effect that would have saved lives.

The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire of 1911 still remains one of the most vivid and horrid tragedies that changed American Labor Unions and labor laws. The fire had come only five years after Upton Sinclair published his book The Jungle, which detailed the plight of the workers at a meat packer's plant. But instead of reforming the working conditions most people wanted to reform the health and safety regulations on food. The tragic death of 146 girls, whose average age was 19, was needed before the politicians and the people saw for the need to regulate safety in the workplace.

Pauline Cuoio Pepe was a nineteen-year-old sewing machine operator and the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory. "It was all nice young Jewish girls who were engaged to be married. You should see the diamonds and everything. Those were the ones who threw themselves from the window," Pepe told a Manhattan historian. "What the hell did they close the door for? What did the think we were going out with? What are we gonna do, steal a shirtwaist? Who the heck wanted a shirtwaist?" asked Pepe. The New York legislature created a commission called The Factory Commission of 1911. Senator Robert F. Wagner, Alfred E. Smith and Samuel Gompers, president of the American Federation of Labor, headed the commission. One of the most significant results of this commission was the creation of the Fire Prevention division as part of the Fire Department. Restrictions were made to prevent fires from happening and to prevent the blockage of escape routes.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Monday, 25 March, 2002, 23:53 GMT

Cleric sacked over Saudi school fire

An inquiry into a fire at a girls' school in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca has concluded that the education authority neglected safety measures that could have prevented the deaths of 15 girls.

The official in charge of Saudi girls' schools, Muslim cleric Ali bin Murshid el-Murshid, was dismissed on Sunday and his department merged with the Education Ministry.

15 girls died in the blaze and more than 50 were injured

But the report - carried by most newspapers in the kingdom - absolved Saudi Arabia's powerful religious police of blame for making the death toll worse.

The report into the fire two weeks ago said that the girls' education authority had ignored warnings from the headmistress of the school that overcrowding there could cause a fatal stampede.

It also found that there were not enough fire alarms and extinguishers.

'Step towards reform'

The report said that the fire had been caused by a student who put a cigarette out on a pile of papers.

But it said that the department responsible for the education of girls was also to blame.

King Fahd dismissed Mr Murshid and gave his responsibilities to officials in the Education Ministry.

The two agencies have been separate for 40 years, with girls' education in the control of the religious establishment.

Many newspapers approved Mr el-Murshid's dismissal, seeing the decision as a step towards reform of the country's conservative education system.

But accusations that the religious police had prevented girls fleeing the school because they were not wearing head scarves were dismissed as "untrue".

Allegations against police

The mutaween - or Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - are widely feared in Saudi Arabia. They roam the streets enforcing dress codes and sex segregation, and ensuring prayers are performed on time.

About 800 pupils were inside the school when the tragedy occurred on 11 March. More than 50 were injured in the incident.

A witness said that police had beaten back the girls as they tried to escape.

But Interior Minister Prince Nayef last week denied the charges, saying that two members of the police force had gone to the scene of the fire to prevent "mistreatment" of the girls.

Friday, 15 March, 2002, 12:19 GMT

Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.

According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam.

One witness said he saw three policemen "beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya".

The Saudi Gazette quoted witnesses as saying that the police - known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice - had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned "it is a sinful to approach them".

The father of one of the dead girls said that the school watchman even refused to open the gates to let the girls out.

"Lives could have been saved had they not been stopped by members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice," the newspaper concluded.

Relatives' anger

Families of the victims have been incensed over the deaths.

Most of the victims were crushed in a stampede as they tried to flee the blaze.

The school was locked at the time of the fire - a usual practice to ensure full segregation of the sexes.

The religious police are widely feared in Saudi Arabia. They roam the streets enforcing dress codes and sex segregation, and ensuring prayers are performed on time.

Those who refuse to obey their orders are often beaten and sometimes put in jail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm

[Teacher Mark 53]

Good God, 2002?

Edited March 12, 2011 by Teacher Mark

[ready4ONE 5,400]

What's so "goodie" about it?

Three posts to actually respond to the OP? At least you eventually got to it! Of course you offered no personal opinion... Put you down as buying the official 'never happened' version?

This little gem cropped up in a story on "Day of Rage" which turned out to be a non-event.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What's so goodie about it? Put you down as not answering the question.

Three posts to actually respond to the OP? At least you eventually got to it! Of course you offered no personal opinion... Put you down as buying the official 'never happened' version?

This little gem cropped up in a story on "Day of Rage" which turned out to be a non-event.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

What's so goodie about it? Put you down as not answering the question.

Well I obviously was not there, but given the powerful position Saudi religious police hold, my guess is the original story is true. The official story not so much although the fired school official may have been negligent.

Logically nobody would make the allegation against the religious police so I lean towards the acusation being true, and a good example of religious zealotry if so. Thus goodie.

Your turn to be frank and honest.

[^_^ 5,021]

Apr 13, 1919:

The Amritsar Massacre

Previous Day April 13 Calendar Next Day In Amritsar, India's holy city of the Sikh religion, British and Gurkha troops massacre at least 379 unarmed demonstrators meeting at the Jallianwala Bagh, a city park. Most of those killed were Indian nationalists meeting to protest the British government's forced conscription of Indian soldiers and the heavy war tax imposed against the Indian people.

A few days earlier, in reaction to a recent escalation in protests, Amritsar was placed under martial law and handed over to British Brigadier General Reginald Dyer, who banned all meetings and gatherings in the city. On April 13, the day of the Sikh Baisakhi festival, tens of thousands of people came to Amritsar from surrounding villages to attend the city's traditional fairs. Thousands of these people, many unaware of Dyer's recent ban on public assemblies, convened at Jallianwala Bagh, where a nationalist demonstration was being held. Dyer's troops surrounded the park and without warning opened fire on the crowd, killing several hundred and wounding more than a thousand. Dyer, who in a subsequent investigation admitted to ordering the attack for its "moral effect" on the people of the region, had his troops continue the murderous barrage until all their artillery was exhausted. British authorities later removed him from his post.

The massacre stirred nationalist feelings across India and had a profound effect on one of the movement's leaders, Mohandas Gandhi. During World War I, Gandhi had actively supported the British in the hope of winning partial autonomy for India, but after the Amritsar Massacre he became convinced that India should accept nothing less than full independence. To achieve this end, Gandhi began organizing his first campaign of mass civil disobedience against Britain's oppressive rule

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-amritsar-massacre

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well I obviously was not there, but given the powerful position Saudi religious police hold, my guess is the original story is true. The official story not so much although the fired school official may have been negligent.

Logically nobody would make the allegation against the religious police so I lean towards the acusation being true, and a good example of religious zealotry if so. Thus goodie.

Your turn to be frank and honest.

Show me where I've been unfrank and dishonest.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Show me where I've been unfrank and dishonest.

5 posts so far, and you have made no comment on the OP. Honesty is not a factor, but frankly you have been less than candid with your opinion on the OP. In fact you have dodged it completely, with the exception of your follow up posting of the Saudi 'official' outcome, of course without comment.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

5 posts so far, and you have made no comment on the OP. Honesty is not a factor, but frankly you have been less than candid with your opinion on the OP. In fact you have dodged it completely, with the exception of your follow up posting of the Saudi 'official' outcome, of course without comment.

No one posting here has commented on the OP, including you. I guess that makes us all less than candid, dodgy, and dishonest, including you.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

No one posting here has commented on the OP, including you. I guess that makes us all less than candid, dodgy, and dishonest, including you.

I did comment, initially in how I titled the thread, then directly answered your question about what my thoughts were on the OP article.

Post 6 and still nothing from you by way of an opinion.