Putin proposes scrapping visas between Russia, US

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The laws governing VWP have nothing to do with standard of living. They have everything to do with things like nonimmigrant visa refusal rates.

These are the countries which have VWP status today. Just putting it out there for those who don't know.

BTW - what's the standard of living like in Latvia vis a vis the United States?

Andorra Hungary New Zealand

Australia Iceland Norway

Austria Ireland Portugal

Belgium Italy San Marino

Brunei Japan Singapore

Czech Republic Latvia Slovakia

Denmark Liechtenstein Slovenia

Estonia Lithuania South Korea

Finland Luxembourg Spain

France Malta Sweden

Germany Monaco Switzerland

Greece the Netherlands United Kingdom

And why do you think non-immigrant visas are refused?

[^_^ 5,021]

See this site for a ranking of countries by Human Development Index - a good proxy for standard of living.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

You will notice that all the VWP countries are listed with higher HDI's than Russia. Which would seem to make your point, until you also notice that many countries with HDI's higher than Latvia do not have VWP.

Which leads to the inescapable conclusion that there's more to it than mere standard of living.

The idea that higher standards of living will necessarily result in fewer fraudulent nonimmigrant visa applications being filed may have some merit but doesn't appear to be the whole story. There's more to it and I don't know what it is.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

See this site for a ranking of countries by Human Development Index - a good proxy for standard of living.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

You will notice that all the VWP countries are listed with higher HDI's than Russia. Which would seem to make your point, until you also notice that many countries with HDI's higher than Latvia do not have VWP.

Which leads to the inescapable conclusion that there's more to it than mere standard of living.

The idea that higher standards of living will necessarily result in fewer fraudulent nonimmigrant visa applications being filed may have some merit but doesn't appear to be the whole story. There's more to it and I don't know what it is.

There is more to it, but not much. When a country is admitted to the EU or given non-visa status to the EU it greatly reduces the chances of illegal immigration to the US because those citizens now have access to many other developed countries. Latvia may have a lower standard than other countries, BUT they have access to the rest of the EU, so why immigrate illegally to the USA? Why not to Germany and be able to visit family on weekends? Check the list again. Which country isn't a member of or doesn't have free access to the EU?

VWP is granted to countries whose citizen's risk of immigrating illegally to the US is simply too low to be concerned with. That is largely (but not entirely) related to standard of living. If the EU were to grant visa free travel to Russians, maybe the US would consider it. That won't happen anytime soon either.

[^_^ 5,021]

There is more to it, but not much. When a country is admitted to the EU or given non-visa status to the EU it greatly reduces the chances of illegal immigration to the US because those citizens now have access to many other developed countries. Latvia may have a lower standard than other countries, BUT they have access to the rest of the EU, so why immigrate illegally to the USA? Why not to Germany and be able to visit family on weekends? Check the list again. Which country isn't a member of or doesn't have free access to the EU?

VWP is granted to countries whose citizen's risk of immigrating illegally to the US is simply too low to be concerned with. That is largely (but not entirely) related to standard of living. If the EU were to grant visa free travel to Russians, maybe the US would consider it. That won't happen anytime soon either.

I just went over the top 42 countries in the HDI list and found something interesting.

The only countries in the top 42 that do not have visa-free travel to the US are - Israel, UAE, Brunei, Qatar, Bahrain, Poland and Barbados.

Poland....

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I just went over the top 42 countries in the HDI list and found something interesting.

The only countries in the top 42 that do not have visa-free travel to the US are - Israel, UAE, Brunei, Qatar, Bahrain, Poland and Barbados.

Poland....

Is it an updated list? I thought I had heard Poland was added, I could be wrong. Barbados I am at a loss to explain. Maybe it is the effin' huge snails that seem to take over the island!

The others are understandable.

[^_^ 5,021]

Is it an updated list? I thought I had heard Poland was added, I could be wrong. Barbados I am at a loss to explain. Maybe it is the effin' huge snails that seem to take over the island!

The others are understandable.

I got the list of vwp countries from state.gov but I just checked google news for any new developments that may have resulted in poland being added and found this instead-

Rep. Dan Lipinski trying again: Visa waiver for Polish citizens visiting the U.S.

By Lynn Sweet on March 7, 2011 2:05 PM | No Comments

WASHINGTON--For years, Congress has declined to allow Polish citizens to visit the U.S. without a visa, though folks from 36 countries can come here without one.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I just went over the top 42 countries in the HDI list and found something interesting.

The only countries in the top 42 that do not have visa-free travel to the US are - Israel, UAE, Brunei, Qatar, Bahrain, Poland and Barbados.

Poland....

When Russia improves its standard of living, throughout the country, OR gets visa free acces to the EU, then they will be added as a VWP country. If you have not been to Russia, you may be surprised at the varying standards of living. Moscow and St Petersburg are nearly a world apart. (Of course, so is Long Island vs. Appalachia villages ) But truly our standard of living here is more homogenous than Russia, or Ukraine. I do not think it would be Moscovites trying to immigrate illegally to the US, at least not so much.

FYI, Russia and Ukraine have a huge problem with illegal immigration themselves.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[^_^ 5,021]

When Russia improves its standard of living, throughout the country, OR gets visa free acces to the EU, then they will be added as a VWP country. If you have not been to Russia, you may be surprised at the varying standards of living. Moscow and St Petersburg are nearly a world apart. (Of course, so is Long Island vs. Appalachia villages ) But truly our standard of living here is more homogenous than Russia, or Ukraine. I do not think it would be Moscovites trying to immigrate illegally to the US, at least not so much.

FYI, Russia and Ukraine have a huge problem with illegal immigration themselves.

'Illegal immigration' is a worldwide problem. Even poor countries get illegal immigrants from even poorer countries.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I got the list of vwp countries from state.gov but I just checked google news for any new developments that may have resulted in poland being added and found this instead-

Rep. Dan Lipinski trying again: Visa waiver for Polish citizens visiting the U.S.

By Lynn Sweet on March 7, 2011 2:05 PM | No Comments

WASHINGTON--For years, Congress has declined to allow Polish citizens to visit the U.S. without a visa, though folks from 36 countries can come here without one.

I thought they had been added in 2008 with CZ Republic. I guess not.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

'Illegal immigration' is a worldwide problem. Even poor countries get illegal immigrants from even poorer countries.

I was suprised to see, recently, that Russia has the 2nd most illegal immigrants (only the US has more) and Ukraine was in the top 10. But Russia is quite well off compared to many of the former Republics, as is Ukraine.

[^_^ 5,021]

Do you recall where you saw that list?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Do you recall where you saw that list?

Probably something you posted. That or someone else that has lots of spare time to prowl the internet for pablum to post. Bet they are not married to an FSU chick.

[dogspot 90]

Personal attacks like that are against TOS. You know that, don't you?

What are you the NKVD?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

What are you the NKVD?

[ONA 133]

I do have to say though, having these discussions with you Ona is a breath of fresh air and a nice change from the usual threads such as ..."what's a good Russian recipe to make cook for my other half".

Thanks, but I really really do get tired of all that mess.

The only thing I wanted to say is that I wasn't saying that Russians hate ad have to hate all people from the Baltics. I asked, shall Russian people start hating Germans for what Hitler did? Cause apparently a lot of nations hate Russians for what they didn't do, so shall we start doing the same thing and justify our behaviour with all the dictruction that Nazis caused to Russia?

And also, if you really knew a lot about what's going on in Russia, you'd have noticed how much Putin and Medvedev drifted apart (compared to what was before), and getting rid of Luzhkov was Medvedev's decision.