Putin proposes scrapping visas between Russia, US

[rika60607 215]

I am sorry, but you are not pro-facts. Your facts are deeply colored and nicely twisted by your negative feelings towards Russians. You have admitted to being anti-Russian before, too. It is too bothersome to argue each and every mis-statement that you make on the subject. Too many of them!

I am not "anti Russian", I am "pro facts".

But of course there will be no VWP for Russians Not in the next decade, anyway.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I am sorry, but you are not pro-facts. Your facts are deeply colored and nicely twisted by your negative feelings towards Russians. You have admitted to being anti-Russian before, too. It is too bothersome to argue each and every mis-statement that you make on the subject. Too many of them!

But of course there will be no VWP for Russians Not in the next decade, anyway.

If my facts are "deeply colored and nicely twisted" as you say, then prove me otherwise. Making bold post like yours above is for peeps who don't have a valid argument and/or the conversation is above their head. Iv'e read enough of your post on here already to see that making short bold statements without a valid rebuttal is as good as it gets for you.

btw I know a fair amount of Russians that would beg to differ with you on my account of being "anti Russian".

Edited March 12, 2011 by Why_Me

[dogspot 90]

Funny: this thread is supposed to be about visa's between Russia and the US but there is more talk about Belarus here than either of those two countries. Why doesn't someone go start a thread about Belarus and have a mod move all this junk over there?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Funny: this thread is supposed to be about visa's between Russia and the US but there is more talk about Belarus here than either of those two countries. Why doesn't someone go start a thread about Belarus and have a mod move all this junk over there?

Maybe you missed the point as to why the US will not relax the visa laws in regards to Russia anytime in the near future...or did I miss something ?

Edited March 12, 2011 by Why_Me

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Funny: this thread is supposed to be about visa's between Russia and the US but there is more talk about Belarus here than either of those two countries. Why doesn't someone go start a thread about Belarus and have a mod move all this junk over there?

btw what is your opinion on Putin's offer ? Why do you think, or don't think the US should accept his offer to relax visa's between the two country's ? Or should you just ask the mods on here to remove the "junk post" on here like you suggested. What is a junk post in your opinion ? I'm guessing any post on here that differs with Putin's offer to Biden in regards to his offer is considered a "junk post" in your eyes ?

Help clue me in please...I'm a bit slow.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Let's look at the pro's and cons of why the US & Russia should have an open visa policy such as the US does with the EU.

Pro's

1) It would make it easier for US/Russian couples to visit each other.

2) It would be easier for Russian and/or US relatives to come visit each other

Con's

1) It would be a giant slap in the face/insult to anyone that has ties to Belarus for obvious reasons to anyone that has an IQ above +10.

2) See reason #1 directly up above.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Why_Me

[dogspot 90]

btw what is your opinion on Putin's offer ? Why do you think, or don't think the US should accept his offer to relax visa's between the two country's ? Or should you just ask the mods on here to remove the "junk post" on here like you suggested. What is a junk post in your opinion ? I'm guessing any post on here that differs with Putin's offer to Biden in regards to his offer is considered a "junk post" in your eyes ?

The junk I'm referring to are the posts that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. You made your point 5 pages back, derailed the thread, and continue to take the thread in another direction. You seem to have a bad habit of this. Quit assuming that others think or act a certain way and baiting them with these assumptions. You also have a bad habit of this.

Help clue me in please...I'm a bit slow.

Agreed.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

The junk I'm referring to are the posts that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. You made your point 5 pages back, derailed the thread, and continue to take the thread in another direction. You seem to have a bad habit of this. Quit assuming that others think or act a certain way and baiting them with these assumptions. You also have a bad habit of this.

Agreed.

Gee wiz "dogspot", I'm glad you put everything into perspective as to why or why not the US & Russia should relax the visa laws between the two country's. It makes everything so clear to me now.

This board could use a lot more insight such as yours on here.

[ONA 133]

As far as the peoples of the Baltics are concerned they have a legitimate gripe with Russia imo. When your country has been invaded not once, but three times in the last century by your neighbor, and a sizable amount of your population gets deported to Siberia with a above average death count on the way to...and while in Siberia, not to mention mass raping of your women, then to top it off you have Russians moved into such a small country trying to "Russify" it...yes I can see where the Baltics might have a gripe or two.

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a mistake, but what's the point in being aggresive and getting rid of Russians while inviting openly Chechen terrorists? And what's the point in making Nazis the heroes? People, who happened to live in the Baltics at the time of the USSR collapse are not to blame for what had been done long before they were born.

About 90% of my city was ruined by Nazis during the WWII and they wanted to make Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians be their slaves, so shall I start hating Germans now? Will that be a smart thing to do?

Really. Just think about it for a minute - how stupid is all that!

To top it off, Russification of Russia's neighbors has always been a problem. Ask yourself why Belarus speaks Russian for the most part and not Belarusian ?

Russian was a link language and the only way people from the Baltics could speak to people from Armenia for example. It was important to have that kind of a language in a multynational country. Also, a lot of people in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan etc. were illiterate intil 1920-40s, and that was the time they actually learned how to read and write in their NATIVE languages.

In USSR people were encouraged to learn their native language along with Russian.

My dad is from Ukraine and when he went to school both Russian and Ukrainian were compulsory. And he actually knew Ukrainian better until he moved to Russia. And people of his generation from Ukraine are usually pretty good with both Russian and Ukrainian, while younger people (my age) a lot of times can speak only one of those languages or try speaking both, but none of them in a proper way.

Now, I don't really like the fact that a lot of people in Ukraine can't speak Ukrainian - even I do, although I consider myself more Russian, but Ukrainian is my second-native language (and it's relatively close to Russian ). But the reason why it's happening is not "evil Russia", it's lame language policy of Ukrainian government - people are not going to speak a language if they are forced to do it. Also, trying to borrow some words from English and make people use them instead of the words which already exist and have the same meaning (just sound too close to Russian) is just ridiculous. Also, before making students study in Ukrainian and make research papers in Ukrainian, it would be nice to have some textbooks and terms translated to Ukrainian.

I don't know what's going on in Belarus, but it might be the same thing.

Russia on the contrary has a pretty wise language policy - students in Tatarstan and other republics are allowed to get their edication in their native languages. Speaking Russian is a must, but in everyday life you're allowed to use any language you want.

Now to Luzkov. Yes he was in office before Tsar Putin took power, but he could have been removed from office years before he finally was by Tsar Putin and it didn't happen until Luzkov finally pushed the wrong buttons with Tsar Putin. Putin himself has belittled Ukraine, he has blown Grozny to pieces, invaded Georgia, and made threats against the peoples of Estonia.

I will have to fail you in Russian history and current affairs, sorry.

Putin didnt remove Luzhkov, Putin was not pissed off by Luzhkov. It was Medvedev's work, who's by the way the President of Russia at the moment.

Putin didn't blow Grozny to pieces, he actually was the one, who 'ended' the 2nd Chechen war. The 1st Chechen war started in 1994, and Eltsin was the President at that time. And the cause was that Eltsin wanted to be 'democratic' and said that republics could be as free and independed as they wanted to. Apparently, he didn't mean actual independence, but Chechens thought that he did, so they decided that they could fight for their independence and again fighting "Evil Russia" sounded good for them. Tatarstan and Bashkortostan were smarter - and now look at them, they have beautiful cities, good education, and peple over there seem to be pretty happy with their lives.

Now the Georgia thingy also happened when Putin was not the President anymore. And do I have to tell you the whole story of Abkhaziya and South Ossetia, really? It started long before 2008 and Russia was not the cause.

Speaking about democracy as a whole. I think there is no democracy, there was never any and there won't be. And I'm not speaking about Russia right now, I'm speaking about everywhere in the world. Democracy is clearly a utopia.

1) It would be a giant slap in the face/insult to anyone that has ties to Belarus for obvious reasons to anyone that has an IQ above +10.

I don't think that the USA care that much about anyone who has ties to Belarus, and I consider that to be pretty obvoius too.

Edited March 12, 2011 by ONA

[^_^ 5,021]

I will have to fail you in Russian history and current affairs, sorry.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a mistake, but what's the point in being aggresive and getting rid of Russians while inviting openly Chechen terrorists? And what's the point in making Nazis the heroes? People, who happened to live in the Baltics at the time of the USSR collapse are not to blame for what had been done long before they were born.

About 90% of my city was ruined by Nazis during the WWII and they wanted to make Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians be their slaves, so shall I start hating Germans now? Will that be a smart thing to do?

Really. Just think about it for a minute - how stupid is all that!

Russian was a link language and the only way people from the Baltics could speak to people from Armenia for example. It was important to have that kind of a language in a multynational country. Also, a lot of people in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan etc. were illiterate intil 1920-40s, and that was the time they actually learned how to read and write in their NATIVE languages.

In USSR people were encouraged to learn their native language along with Russian.

My dad is from Ukraine and when he went to school both Russian and Ukrainian were compulsory. And he actually knew Ukrainian better until he moved to Russia. And people of his generation from Ukraine are usually pretty good with both Russian and Ukrainian, while younger people (my age) a lot of times can speak only one of those languages or try speaking both, but none of them in a proper way.

Now, I don't really like the fact that a lot of people in Ukraine can't speak Ukrainian - even I do, although I consider myself more Russian, but Ukrainian is my second-native language (and it's relatively close to Russian ). But the reason why it's happening is not "evil Russia", it's lame language policy of Ukrainian government - people are not going to speak a language if they are forced to do it. Also, trying to borrow some words from English and make people use them instead of the words which already exist and have the same meaning (just sound too close to Russian) is just ridiculous. Also, before making students study in Ukrainian and make research papers in Ukrainian, it would be nice to have some textbooks and terms translated to Ukrainian.

I don't know what's going on in Belarus, but it might be the same thing.

Russia on the contrary has a pretty wise language policy - students in Tatarstan and other republics are allowed to get their edication in their native languages. Speaking Russian is a must, but in everyday life you're allowed to use any language you want.

I will have to fail you in Russian history and current affairs, sorry.

Putin didnt remove Luzhkov, Putin was not pissed off by Luzhkov. It was Medvedev's work, who's by the way the President of Russia at the moment.

Putin didn't blow Grozny to pieces, he actually was the one, who 'ended' the 2nd Chechen war. The 1st Chechen war started in 1994, and Eltsin was the President at that time. And the cause was that Eltsin wanted to be 'democratic' and said that republics could be as free and independed as they wanted to. Apparently, he didn't mean actual independence, but Chechens thought that he did, so they decided that they could fight for their independence and again fighting "Evil Russia" sounded good for them. Tatarstan and Bashkortostan were smarter - and now look at them, they have beautiful cities, good education, and peple over there seem to be pretty happy with their lives.

Now the Georgia thingy also happened when Putin was not the President anymore. And do I have to tell you the whole story of Abkhaziya and South Ossetia, really? It started long before 2008 and Russia was not the cause.

Speaking about democracy as a whole. I think there is no democracy, there was never any and there won't be. And I'm not speaking about Russia right now, I'm speaking about everywhere in the world. Democracy is clearly a utopia.

I don't think that the USA care that much about anyone who has ties to Belarus, and I consider that to be pretty obvoius too.

I love it. "Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact" was a mistake. Hello ? You failed to mention the thousands of Poles that had a bullet put through the back of their head when the Russians along with their NAZI ally's invaded Poland together. "Great Patriotic War" ..lol I never hear Russians mention how WW2 started in 1939. For them it always starts in 1941. Say it ain't so....

How many peoples from the Baltics were moved off to Siberia during 1940 by Russians ? Try tens of thousands of men, women, and children. This doesn't even include tens of thousands of Poles that were forced to "walk" to Siberia with most of them left dead on the way there.

Baltics peoples weren't NAZI's, they fought for freedom and independence. They fought for survival. Belarusians, Russians, and Ukrainians by the thousands fought along side the Germans. So don't put this on the Estonians, Lithuanians, and Latvians. It wasn't the Baltic nations that invaded Russia in the first place and then butchered them like they were nothing more than meat for the table. It wasn't those country's that were supplying Germany with arms, materials and fuel so they could better invade Western Europe and bomb England. How many Brits lost their lives due to the fact it was Russians oil fueling NAZI bombers ? This is all "after" Russia invaded Finland and stole the Karelian Peninsula. Ever hear of a city called "Vyborg". Yes, we both know where this is going don't we ? .. Who attempted to make who slaves in regards to Eastern Europe ? I'm going to guess it was the country that invaded the Baltics not once, but twice. And then proceeded to occupy said country's for the next five decades.

So who has amnesia when it comes to Russian history ? If iv'e made one false statement in this post or any other please correct me.

As far as Americans giving two sh*ts about the people in Belarus, most Americans would be lucky if they could even find Belarus on a map. If you live in a country that can't find Iraq even though we are at war there, then don't bet on any of them finding White Russia. But for those of us with ties to Belarus it's a different story. When you have a friend sitting in a Belarusian jail atm, and another one that was beat over the head and spent a few days in jail, and a sister in law brought in for questioning...all by a government that's financially supported by Russia...well yes then it does tend to be an issue. For every day Belarusians live under a murderous Soviet style dictatorship, they have Russia to thank for it.

And yes technically Medvedev removed Luzkov, but anyone with half a clue knows who calls the shots in Russia. There is Tsar Putin, and then here is his ####### kissers who jump when he tells them to...including the President of Russia aka Medvedev. Medvedev was more or less appointed by Tsar Putin and United Russia party. In fact Tsar Putin is United Russia. Nobody in the Kremlin takes a p*ss without his permission.

I do have to say though, having these discussions with you Ona is a breath of fresh air and a nice change from the usual threads such as ..."what's a good Russian recipe to make cook for my other half".

[dogspot 90]

To the know-it-all dude who plastered his Belarusian wife’s face all over the pages of this forum (poor lady), welcome to my ignore list. There you are joined by other people who are arrogant, smarmy, and who do little to contribute in a positive manner to this community. Believe me, you won’t be missed, as I find your posts to have little value other than to stir people up and, quite frankly, reading what you write makes me feel stupid by association. Poka.

As for the visa issue - the subject matter of this thread - there are some legitimate reasons for Russia to be seeking visa-free travel between our two countries. First of all: tourism. Tourism has been on the decline in Russia for the past few years, in part because of the visa requirements and restrictions, but also possibly due to the terrorist activity the past few years (metro, high speed train and airport bombings). This past winter was particularly bad. During the New Year Holiday, when tourists typically flock to Moscow and St. Petersburg to enjoy their time off from work in one of the two most popular destinations in the country, hotels, which are usually completely full, were only at 30-40% capacity. Summer 2010 also saw a decline in visitors from previous years.

As many have noticed over the past couple years, more and more Russian citizens have been granted tourist visas to the USA. Since Obama has been in office, it went from being nearly impossible for a young person in their twenties to visit The States as a tourist to quite possible. I’ve made 6 trips back and forth over this time and have met countless young Russians traveling here “on holiday”; normal, average Russians who did nothing more than apply for the visa and were granted. It is apparent that the restrictions have already eased during the current administration and could possibly flex even more with cooperation from both governments.

That said, it is my theory that Putin sees a window of opportunity to make an attempt at opening the doors for Americans and, in turn, for the countries of Western Europe. I agree that it is highly unlikely that this will come about in the near future, but if there ever was a time to do it, now is that time.

Another thing to consider is Sochi. If there was ever a stage for diplomacy it is the Olympic Games. With the 2014 games coming to Sochi, it is possible that Russia desires a perception of a “new” Russia; A Russia that welcomes people from all Western countries to participate either as competitor or as a spectator (remember the American speed skater who had the visa revoked right before the Beijing Olympics?). It is also worth mentioning that Beijing suffered because of the visa restrictions. Russia can ill afford to suffer from the attendance woes that China experienced in 2008.

What do I think the USA has to gain from this? Not much. Improved diplomatic relationships, perhaps? It seems Obama has more of a desire to improve relations with Putin and his little buddy than Bush had, and I really wouldn’t put it past him to make “change” for the sake of “making change”. As for this American, I hope something does come of it, although I’m not holding my breath. It would be pretty ###### cool for all of Kate’s friends and family to be able to hop on a plane for a visit with nothing more than a ticket and a swim suit.

[^_^ 5,021]

To the know-it-all dude who plastered his Belarusian wife’s face all over the pages of this forum (poor lady), welcome to my ignore list. There you are joined by other people who are arrogant, smarmy, and who do little to contribute in a positive manner to this community.

Personal attacks like that are against TOS. You know that, don't you?

... there are some legitimate reasons for Russia to be seeking visa-free travel between our two countries.

Sure, but the 2% refusal rate rule is set by Congress and can not be changed without an act of Congress. That the Obama administration is letting more Russians in on visitor visas is probably helpful towards that goal, but until it is reached there will be no VWP.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

To the know-it-all dude who plastered his Belarusian wife’s face all over the pages of this forum (poor lady), welcome to my ignore list. There you are joined by other people who are arrogant, smarmy, and who do little to contribute in a positive manner to this community. Believe me, you won’t be missed, as I find your posts to have little value other than to stir people up and, quite frankly, reading what you write makes me feel stupid by association. Poka.

As for the visa issue - the subject matter of this thread - there are some legitimate reasons for Russia to be seeking visa-free travel between our two countries. First of all: tourism. Tourism has been on the decline in Russia for the past few years, in part because of the visa requirements and restrictions, but also possibly due to the terrorist activity the past few years (metro, high speed train and airport bombings). This past winter was particularly bad. During the New Year Holiday, when tourists typically flock to Moscow and St. Petersburg to enjoy their time off from work in one of the two most popular destinations in the country, hotels, which are usually completely full, were only at 30-40% capacity. Summer 2010 also saw a decline in visitors from previous years.

As many have noticed over the past couple years, more and more Russian citizens have been granted tourist visas to the USA. Since Obama has been in office, it went from being nearly impossible for a young person in their twenties to visit The States as a tourist to quite possible. I’ve made 6 trips back and forth over this time and have met countless young Russians traveling here “on holiday”; normal, average Russians who did nothing more than apply for the visa and were granted. It is apparent that the restrictions have already eased during the current administration and could possibly flex even more with cooperation from both governments.

That said, it is my theory that Putin sees a window of opportunity to make an attempt at opening the doors for Americans and, in turn, for the countries of Western Europe. I agree that it is highly unlikely that this will come about in the near future, but if there ever was a time to do it, now is that time.

Another thing to consider is Sochi. If there was ever a stage for diplomacy it is the Olympic Games. With the 2014 games coming to Sochi, it is possible that Russia desires a perception of a “new” Russia; A Russia that welcomes people from all Western countries to participate either as competitor or as a spectator (remember the American speed skater who had the visa revoked right before the Beijing Olympics?). It is also worth mentioning that Beijing suffered because of the visa restrictions. Russia can ill afford to suffer from the attendance woes that China experienced in 2008.

What do I think the USA has to gain from this? Not much. Improved diplomatic relationships, perhaps? It seems Obama has more of a desire to improve relations with Putin and his little buddy than Bush had, and I really wouldn’t put it past him to make “change” for the sake of “making change”. As for this American, I hope something does come of it, although I’m not holding my breath. It would be pretty ###### cool for all of Kate’s friends and family to be able to hop on a plane for a visit with nothing more than a ticket and a swim suit.

Russia's intent is not tourism. I will not speculate what it is, but it is not to increase tourism. Russia could drop its requirement for visas tomorrow and increase tourism, just as Ukraine did in 2005. They are seeking reciprocity and that is not going to happen any time soon. Economics is the reason and nothing else. The countries in the VWP are similar in standard of living to the USA. There would simply be too much of an issue of illegal immigration if we allowed visa free travel for all Russians. As Russia's standard of living increases, and it has greatly in some areas such as Moscow and St Petersburg, then visas will be increased or the VWP will be implemented. I do not expect that to happen anytime soon.

What the NAZI's did to the USSR and particularly Ukraine and Belarus was horrible. I have difficulty to read the plaques around city parks describing how "400 women and children were murdered in a bomb crater here" for the heinous crime of being slavanic. Any Ukrainians or Belarussians that cooperated with them should not have been surprised to learn their ultimate fate.

[^_^ 5,021]

The countries in the VWP are similar in standard of living to the USA. There would simply be too much of an issue of illegal immigration if we allowed visa free travel for all Russians. As Russia's standard of living increases, and it has greatly in some areas such as Moscow and St Petersburg, then visas will be increased or the VWP will be implemented.

The laws governing VWP have nothing to do with standard of living. They have everything to do with things like nonimmigrant visa refusal rates.

These are the countries which have VWP status today. Just putting it out there for those who don't know.

BTW - what's the standard of living like in Latvia vis a vis the United States?

Andorra Hungary New Zealand

Australia Iceland Norway

Austria Ireland Portugal

Belgium Italy San Marino

Brunei Japan Singapore

Czech Republic Latvia Slovakia

Denmark Liechtenstein Slovenia

Estonia Lithuania South Korea

Finland Luxembourg Spain

France Malta Sweden

Germany Monaco Switzerland

Greece the Netherlands United Kingdom