Putin proposes scrapping visas between Russia, US

[rika60607 215]

Never heard of tut.by. I do not know how many of them moving, but I do know that my friends sold their apt in Minsk for over $100k last year (don't know how much over).

Seeing that we refer to exactly the same regions, I can only conclude that the same land that looks beautiful and improving to the Russians traveling through and Belarussians living in, still looks crappy to you. I guess it all depends on one's standards

I can only vouch for Minsk Oblast...and that's the richest of them all. Housing prices may be up...but how many of those houses and apts. are actually moving...being sold ? You ever read "tut.by" ? They have the classified section on there along with Luka's fantasy neighborhoods that he plans on building. Other than that gated community you see when leaving Minsk on the East Road, you don't see jack. Fifteen minutes out of town on the East Road, or even the Road heading north towards Zhodino you start seeing houses with no electricity and water. That's only fifteen miles from Minsk...well before you get to MSQ (air port). Brest and Grodno by the looks of it aren't doing any better.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Heinekin and Tuborg for cheap !

I always enjoyed the local beers more. I thought Lidaskye (from Lida ) was the best of the bunch.

I can only vouch for Minsk Oblast...and that's the richest of them all. Housing prices may be up...but how many of those houses and apts. are actually moving...being sold ? You ever read "tut.by" ? They have the classified section on there along with Luka's fantasy neighborhoods that he plans on building. Other than that gated community you see when leaving Minsk on the East Road, you don't see jack. Fifteen minutes out of town on the East Road, or even the Road heading north towards Zhodino you start seeing houses with no electricity and water. That's only fifteen miles from Minsk...well before you get to MSQ (air port). Brest and Grodno by the looks of it aren't doing any better.

It has been awhile, but I remember driving out past the National Library in Minsk, and seeing large new subdivisions. Big homes, new roads, and really nice looking. My partners said that they were beautiful, but worthless until the government actually ran water, gas, and electricity there - so they were all vacant. I don't know if things have changed recently though.

[Captain Hammer 113]

I always enjoyed the local beers more. I thought Lidaskye (from Lida ) was the best of the bunch.

Ever had Lvivsk Porter? You really have to like porters, but if you do it's one of the best. They make some lagers too, but there are better lagers out there.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I always enjoyed the local beers more. I thought Lidaskye (from Lida ) was the best of the bunch.

It has been awhile, but I remember driving out past the National Library in Minsk, and seeing large new subdivisions. Big homes, new roads, and really nice looking. My partners said that they were beautiful, but worthless until the government actually ran water, gas, and electricity there - so they were all vacant. I don't know if things have changed recently though.

Those neighborhoods are still there...gated community's. Two of them are open..those are the ones on the right hand side of the road when your heading out of Minsk. They even put a "clover leaf" on that road to make it look like a real freeway. One exit goes to those two neighborhoods, and the other one dead ends...to nowhere.

I have a few pics of "Belarusian Jeeps" aka "horse & wagon" or two and one of them was taken on that road about 1 or 2k from those neighborhoods your talking about. It doesn't get any better though then when you are paying high dollars on a down town apt. and they cut the water off for 7-10 days reworking the pipes. On two different occasions there I was boiling water in pots for at least a week in order to bathe. Yay for Soviet technology.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Never heard of tut.by. I do not know how many of them moving, but I do know that my friends sold their apt in Minsk for over $100k last year (don't know how much over).

Seeing that we refer to exactly the same regions, I can only conclude that the same land that looks beautiful and improving to the Russians traveling through and Belarussians living in, still looks crappy to you. I guess it all depends on one's standards

Belarus is beautiful imo...at least the country side and forest. The streets are clean, nice wide clean sidewalks, etc... it's when you get past what I like to call the "Potemkin Villages" that you notice the difference. Dilapidated houses and apt. buildings, most buildings with no working elevators, no air conditioning in malls, stores, restaurants, etc... and I am talking about major hotels in Minsk with no air conditioning. Minsk is like one giant sweat box in the summer months.

You get outside of Minsk and it gets worse. Run down Stalinesque apts. wherever you look. Belarus has no $$$. You cannot have a country that is isolated from the modern world, produce nothing that anyone wants to buy other than food products and expect to survive. Especially when you try and make it a socialist system where the government is the major employer. There are no private grocery stores in Belarus... NONE. Lukashenko never left the Soviet Union in his twisted mind. Not even the farms are privately owned. He's ran out just about every privately owned business in Belarus.

The big money maker in Belarus is..dum de dum... Black Market Goods. We are now in 20011, and Belarus #1 trade outlet is the black market. Now if that isn't sad I don't know what is.

Again Belarus is a beautiful country with it's many lakes and forest, yet it's broke as a $20 crack h0. Isolation and dictatorship hasn't worked well for Belarus.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Belarus is beautiful imo...at least the country side and forest. The streets are clean, nice wide clean sidewalks, etc... it's when you get past what I like to call the "Potemkin Villages" that you notice the difference. Dilapidated houses and apt. buildings, most buildings with no working elevators, no air conditioning in malls, stores, restaurants, etc... and I am talking about major hotels in Minsk with no air conditioning. Minsk is like one giant sweat box in the summer months.

I rented a place about four blocks from the eternal flame at the center (the big one with guards goose stepping around it). Not too far from Gorky (yep - like Moscow) park. The apartment was a Stalinist three room, with original furniture and fixtures, everything neat as a pin and working. I stayed in August once, and swore never, ever again . No air, no fans, and with the windows open all the time the army of municipal workers cleaning the street at 0-dark-thirty every day was my alarm clock. My partners took pity and loaned me a 1950s era fan from one of their factories - it sounded like a turbo jet taking off

In fairness, there are only a few weeks during the year when it gets really hot, and the apartment was retro cool. TZUM with no aircon in August was no fun though.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Thanks, but I know perfectly well what means to be a pro-Russian for a Ukrainian person. I visit my family there at least once a year (the most recent visit was in February) and I talk to my Ukrainian friends all the time. And some of them speak Russian, while the other would use Ukrainian only (thank God I speak Ukrainian, so I can have these people in my life), and guess why that happens?

I don't think there is any American who would keep that in mind.

I would be glad if somebody proves me wrong though, but I don't think that Americans see that point. They only see the "Imperialistic Russia", who wants some territories.

The only thing that outsiders don't see (even if they come from Ukraine) is that Russian brainwashed nationalists are too busy with Chechnya and Dagestan to care even a little bit about Ukraine.

The average Russian may not have any imperialistic notions in regards to Urkaine, but it's not so with your politicians. Tsar Putin himself referred to Ukraine in the media as; "not even being a real country" and had the no class to refer to Ukraine more than once in a derogatory way by calling it; "Malorussia". Yury Luzhkov, the Kremlin appointed mayor of Moscow (up until a few months ago), made reference on several occasions that the Crim belonged to Russia, and that Russia should invade Ukraine. He is not the only Russian politician to make statements such as these. More than a few members of the Russian Duma have said the same thing. It was Tsar Putin himself who offered Ukrainian residents in the Crim Russian passports. And we all know what it means when Russia offers citizens of another country Russian passports. If anyone has any doubts, just ask Georgia.

Were these politicians ever chastised for making such remarks ? The answer to that question is a resounding "No". You don't see US politicians including our president making comments like this in regards to our neighbors.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Why_Me

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I rented a place about four blocks from the eternal flame at the center (the big one with guards goose stepping around it). Not too far from Gorky (yep - like Moscow) park. The apartment was a Stalinist three room, with original furniture and fixtures, everything neat as a pin and working. I stayed in August once, and swore never, ever again . No air, no fans, and with the windows open all the time the army of municipal workers cleaning the street at 0-dark-thirty every day was my alarm clock. My partners took pity and loaned me a 1950s era fan from one of their factories - it sounded like a turbo jet taking off

In fairness, there are only a few weeks during the year when it gets really hot, and the apartment was retro cool. TZUM with no aircon in August was no fun though.

LOL...you were just a few blocks from where Kira and I stay when were there. Were like maybe a 10min walk if that from that place. There's a sushi resteraunt right up the road on the corner, and across the street is the subway station.

Like an idiot the first time I stayed there I didn't realize there weren't any elevators in the building and I rented an apt. on the fourth floor. Mid May - mid June. I thought I was going to die on those stairs. The only thing that saved me was the college across the street...it was "mini skirt heaven". I couldn't have planned that part any better if I intended to. Nothing though like coming back from the store loaded with plastic bags of grocery's, bottles of beer and booze and then having to climb up four flights of stairs. Of course Kira carry's nothing but her purse...

Edited March 11, 2011 by Why_Me

[ONA 133]

The average Russian may not have any imperialistic notions in regards to Urkaine, but it's not so with your politicians. Tsar Putin himself referred to Ukraine in the media as; "not even being a real country" and had the no class to refer to Ukraine more than once in a derogatory way by calling it; "Malorussia".

And why again? That was a response to an attempt to create a NATO base there, which is considered a threat to Russian homeland security.

So now... please remind me what happened when USSR desided to place some missiles in Cuba? How did the USA react?

That's obvious. Countries will do whatever when there's a threat, even if it's not always a fair play. It's not being 'imperialistic' and wanting a piece of land.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

And why again? That was a response to an attempt to create a NATO base there, which is considered a threat to Russian homeland security.

So now... please remind me what happened when USSR desided to place some missiles in Cuba? How did the USA react?

That's obvious. Countries will do whatever when there's a threat, even if it's not always a fair play. It's not being 'imperialistic' and wanting a piece of land.

The missiles proposed for Ukraine were (so we are told) defensive missiles meant and designed to shoot down other missiles. They would be no threat to Russia, at least ostensibly, but I understand Russia's trepidation as their experience with heavily armed "friends" is not good. The US was open about wanting to put them there to protect eastern Eyrope from someone like Iran. They were not medium and long range nuclear warhead missiles that were placed in Cuba secretly. The comparison is not valid, but neither is it needed.

That said, yes I understand that Russia does not want NATO placing missiles in what was part of their territory until recently. I will even grant you that Russians and Ukrainians are more blunt and speak their mind. Not the politically correct mamby pamby we get from our politicians. By far, most Ukrainians I talk to (all of them speak Russian) want nothing to do with NATO or NATO missiles. They would prefer to just be left alone and do not feel they need to be closely allied with anyone in particular.

Also you will never hear our president say those things because who are our neighbors? Canada and Mexico? The average American has no clue what it is like to have the neighbors that other countries have.

Yum...Alla just brought me a plate of blini!

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

And why again? That was a response to an attempt to create a NATO base there, which is considered a threat to Russian homeland security.

So now... please remind me what happened when USSR desided to place some missiles in Cuba? How did the USA react?

That's obvious. Countries will do whatever when there's a threat, even if it's not always a fair play. It's not being 'imperialistic' and wanting a piece of land.

To get an honest answer on Russian hospitality in regards to their neighbors, one would have to ask someone from the Baltics and/or the Caucuses.

[ONA 133]

To get an honest answer on Russian hospitality in regards to their neighbors, one would have to ask someone from the Baltics and/or the Caucuses.

Please, don't even get me started on that one

[eekee 182]

Because people in the Baltics are soooo friendly to Russians.

Belarus kept a lot of things Soviet-style because at the time of the fall, it was actually the most economically successful part of the Soviet Union and they took an "ain't broke/don't fix it" approach.

Luzhkov was mayor of Moscow before the policy of appointing mayors/heads of regional government was in place.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Because people in the Baltics are soooo friendly to Russians.

Belarus kept a lot of things Soviet-style because at the time of the fall, it was actually the most economically successful part of the Soviet Union and they took an "ain't broke/don't fix it" approach.

Luzhkov was mayor of Moscow before the policy of appointing mayors/heads of regional government was in place.

Belarus has kept things "Soviet Style" for the fact that's what Lukashenko wants. When you have a dictator who has been in power 16+ years it's kind of hard to make changes. It's not like the citizens of Belarus have a choice without having a revolution. Voting him out certainly isn't going to work when the elections are rigged and the opposition is beaten and jailed....even murdered on occasion.

As far as the peoples of the Baltics are concerned they have a legitimate gripe with Russia imo. When your country has been invaded not once, but three times in the last century by your neighbor, and a sizable amount of your population gets deported to Siberia with a above average death count on the way to...and while in Siberia, not to mention mass raping of your women, then to top it off you have Russians moved into such a small country trying to "Russify" it...yes I can see where the Baltics might have a gripe or two.

It get's even better...or worse I might add. When Estonia relocated the statue of the "Bronze Occupier", Russians went crazy. Even to the extent of physically attacking the Estonian and Swedish ambassadeurs in Russia. Not one of the culprits were ever brought to justice. Russia has yet to come clean with the crimes of it's last regime. The best you will hear from most Russian politicians is the lame excuses that "Stalin was Georgian" or better yet... "Russians were victims also". That doesn't get it with Russia's neighbors who were victims and continued to be victims until the USSR was broke and could no longer sustain itself. If the USSR didn't go broke, trust me Russians would have no problem towing the Communist line. The only thing that brought change to Russia from USSR to Russia today was for financial reasons. Soviet statues, and Bolshevik names of Russian city's still abound. To top it off, Russification of Russia's neighbors has always been a problem. Ask yourself why Belarus speaks Russian for the most part and not Belarusian ? Ask yourself why the Baltics have made it mandatory to learn the language of said country ?

Now to Luzkov. Yes he was in office before Tsar Putin took power, but he could have been removed from office years before he finally was by Tsar Putin and it didn't happen until Luzkov finally pushed the wrong buttons with Tsar Putin. Putin himself has belittled Ukraine, he has blown Grozny to pieces, invaded Georgia, and made threats against the peoples of Estonia. And speaking of "appointing governors and mayors"...this further goes to show that democracy in today's Russia is nothing more than a sham. If anything democracy in Russia has gone backwards, not forwards. And why is this ? Because most Russians love a "strong leader". Seriously Russian's for the most part could give two sh*ts less if an election was rigged or not as long as Russia looks strong to the rest of the world. All the while Tsar Putin and his siloviki crony's are laughing all the way to the bank.

And in case anyone tries to bring up the lame excuse on here that "democracy is a new concept in Russia" I call BS!. It's new to a lot of country's in the former Eastern Bloc, but it's not a popular thing in the "RUB" country's with a large part of the population. Look at democracy in the RUB country's, and then look at it in the former East block country's. Anyone here see a difference ? Even the justice system in Russia is a farce. How many of Tsar Putin's enemy's have been prosecuted on trumped up charges vs how many of perps of murdered human rights workers and journalist in Russia have been convicted ? It's a bad joke is what it is.

Russia is needed by Europe for it's gas and oil, but as far as trusting Russia...no Europe does not and for good reasons. If Russia was making progress instead of regressing it would be a different story, but that's not the case.

I am not "anti Russian", I am "pro facts".

Edited March 12, 2011 by Why_Me

[bainbridge558 0]

You can tell that idiot Biden anything.... and no telling what he might say!

AMEN Neon !!!!!!