Putin proposes scrapping visas between Russia, US

[ONA 133]

Yes. The region around Kursk was always considered a "Ukrainian" region. Kursk ended up in Russia, Kharkov in Ukraine.

Just tyo clear up the situation... What? Kursk was not Ukrainian. Belgorod Region was Ukrainian, Crimea was Russian, and they're saying that drunk Khruschev exchanged it. That's it

In XVIII-XIX centuries there was a region called Slobozhanshchina, which included some Russian and Ukrainian territories, but it was abolished in 1835. You want to go that far, really? Cause that way we might as well... o well, nevermind I don't know why everybody thinks they are so important that Russia cares so much about them. Like Russians really don't have enough of their own problems (I hope everybody understands that joining some territories doesn not mean just getting their resourses, it's getting their problems too). That's weird that nobody in Russia is talking or thinking about re-uniting with Ukraine or Belarus, while everybody there can't just shut up saying that.

Edited March 11, 2011 by ONA

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Just tyo clear up the situation... What? Kursk was not Ukrainian. Belgorod Region was Ukrainian, Crimea was Russian, and they're saying that drunk Khruschev exchanged it. That's it

In XVIII-XIX centuries there was a region called Slobozhanshchina, which included some Russian and Ukrainian territories, but it was abolished in 1835. You want to go that far, really? Cause that way we might as well... o well, nevermind I don't know why everybody thinks they are so important that Russia cares so much about them. Like Russians really don't have enough of their own problems (I hope everybody understands that joining some territories doesn not mean just getting their resourses, it's getting their problems too). That's weird that nobody in Russia is talking or thinking about re-uniting with Ukraine or Belarus, while everybody there can't just shut up saying that.

For the record I have never mentioned a word about Ukraine reuniting with Russia and for that matter never heard a word in Ukraine about it either (quite the opposite even though I have spent most of my time in Ukraine in heavily "pro-Russian" areas) Pro-Russian in Ukraine does not mean "we want to be part of Russia". It means they do not feel the need to kick Russians in the face whenever they get the chance or to change a language they have been speaking for hundreds of years. It means they also do not think they have to spit on Russians and then jump in bed with ####### Cheney and Condoleeza Rice. It means they do not think they have to trade the Russian navy for US missiles.

what I did say was that Russia has and does rely heavily on resources in Ukraine. There is nothing bad about saying so. The Russian naval presence in Odessa during the Orange Revolution was unsettling. At least for me. Maybe not for people that grew up with the Black Sea fleet circling around, but we do not see such things in the US. Blame t on my naivete if you wish. But it was a threat nonetheless. A huge amount of the goods going in and out of Odessa are bound for or coming from, Russia. A huge amount of the gas Russia sells passes through Ukraine.

I pointed out that it is foolish to say there is nothing in Ukraine that Russia needs.

[rika60607 215]

As I previously said, Russia as a country politically/economically needs and Russian people want Crimea back. As for everything else... nope. Don't want or need it. The gas that Russia sells through Ukraine is the same gas that Ukraine buys at super cheaply negotiated prices or steals from Russia So it is a symbiotic relationship

I have heard many times in Belarus talks about re-uniting with Russia. Never in Russia - Russians don't care. At the same time I understand how NATO presence in Belarus would be unacceptable to Russia and hence politically, Russia will always try to influence Belarus. Is it possible that Lukashenko gets all the goodies from Russia not because Russian government likes him, but because they need him to keep NATO out?

A huge amount of the gas Russia sells passes through Ukraine.

I pointed out that it is foolish to say there is nothing in Ukraine that Russia needs.

[Brad and Vika 129]

That sounds about right. Luckily, Ukraine or Belarus could never be taken by Russian government by force. People (army) simply will not do that and government knows it.

I have been told that in some Russian cities (Rosta specifically), people talk about "getting our Ukraine back" openly.

It get's even better though. After Lukashenko was voted in president the first time, the first thing he did was take his Russian trained KGB and arrest Congress, install a new Congress and then changed the Belarusian Constitution so that not only did he now have unlimited powers, but he can run for president as many times as he likes. And all this was planned in Moscow well before Lukashenko won the first time around.

I know that is true. My business there depended on having strong partners in Minsk, because the courts are an extension of the government - so any dispute goes against the foriegn entity, especially an American one. I was surprised when my own government torpedoed the venture

My partners also told me that unification was never going to happen because no one in Belarus wanted Russian businesses to control the entire market there. The Office of the President of the Republic owns a piece of most businesses, and collects lots of revenue in addition to that from the large ones. None of the people making a profit from the monopolies could continue to make a living if the government "share" went to Moscow.

[rika60607 215]

What is the basis of your opinion that situation in Belarus is getting worse?

Newspapers much? When were you there last time? How many times in the last say, 10 years? How many times in the last 2 years?

I have relatives there and I have relatives who go there several times a year from Russia, driving through all the way to the Poland border. So I'd say I have a pretty accurate account

Yes, people are not rich, but they are getting better, or else how do you explain rising prices of real estate? Country cleaned up, you won't see garbage on streets like you see in most other countries. Best of all, people are proud of being Belorussians, and that without becoming disgusting nationalists. They are good people. I do not know where you get this "they hate Russians" thing, may be you find it because you hate Russians yourself? But if you do not go looking for it, you will not encounter Xenophobia there.

First off the situation in Belarus hasn't got any better, it's gotten significantly worse... fianacially wise, social economics wise, and human rights wise...all have and still are getting worse by the day.

[rika60607 215]

Any chance those were the same people who got thrown out of Ukraine by nationalists?

If so, I would believe it. And then there is always a minor portion of brainwashed nationalists in almost any country. Some countries, like Ukraine, have more of them than is healthy

I have been told that in some Russian cities (Rosta specifically), people talk about "getting our Ukraine back" openly.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Any chance those were the same people who got thrown out of Ukraine by nationalists?

If so, I would believe it. And then there is always a minor portion of brainwashed nationalists in almost any country. Some countries, like Ukraine, have more of them than is healthy

I really couldn't say I only know what my wife's family tell her. That sort of talk definitely irritates most Ukrainians. I believe the eastern part of the country wants closer economic ties to Russia, but not a unified government at all. The western half has a different opinion entirely.

[ONA 133]

For the record I have never mentioned a word about Ukraine reuniting with Russia and for that matter never heard a word in Ukraine about it either (quite the opposite even though I have spent most of my time in Ukraine in heavily "pro-Russian" areas) Pro-Russian in Ukraine does not mean "we want to be part of Russia". It means they do not feel the need to kick Russians in the face whenever they get the chance or to change a language they have been speaking for hundreds of years. It means they also do not think they have to spit on Russians and then jump in bed with ####### Cheney and Condoleeza Rice. It means they do not think they have to trade the Russian navy for US missiles.

Thanks, but I know perfectly well what means to be a pro-Russian for a Ukrainian person. I visit my family there at least once a year (the most recent visit was in February) and I talk to my Ukrainian friends all the time. And some of them speak Russian, while the other would use Ukrainian only (thank God I speak Ukrainian, so I can have these people in my life), and guess why that happens?

Is it possible that Lukashenko gets all the goodies from Russia not because Russian government likes him, but because they need him to keep NATO out?

I don't think there is any American who would keep that in mind.

I would be glad if somebody proves me wrong though, but I don't think that Americans see that point. They only see the "Imperialistic Russia", who wants some territories.

Any chance those were the same people who got thrown out of Ukraine by nationalists?

If so, I would believe it. And then there is always a minor portion of brainwashed nationalists in almost any country. Some countries, like Ukraine, have more of them than is healthy

The only thing that outsiders don't see (even if they come from Ukraine) is that Russian brainwashed nationalists are too busy with Chechnya and Dagestan to care even a little bit about Ukraine.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

What is the basis of your opinion that situation in Belarus is getting worse?

Newspapers much? When were you there last time? How many times in the last say, 10 years? How many times in the last 2 years?

I have relatives there and I have relatives who go there several times a year from Russia, driving through all the way to the Poland border. So I'd say I have a pretty accurate account

Yes, people are not rich, but they are getting better, or else how do you explain rising prices of real estate? Country cleaned up, you won't see garbage on streets like you see in most other countries. Best of all, people are proud of being Belorussians, and that without becoming disgusting nationalists. They are good people. I do not know where you get this "they hate Russians" thing, may be you find it because you hate Russians yourself? But if you do not go looking for it, you will not encounter Xenophobia there.

I spend a month there every year...30 days a year is the max allowable time an American is allowed to stay. I have a friend in jail there atm over the last presidential election protest, and my wife and I have a mutual friend who spent a few days in jail after she was beaten over the head by police. My sister in law was questioned over my visits there.

Economic wise Belarus is getting worse by the day. From students who don't get paid on time, who frequently have to pay for their own travel...travel that's on school business, to Bela Tractor company in Zhodino who's lost contract after contract for the fact it's plant is years behind technology wise yet is government owned like everything else there. Old people who have had their pensions stay the same while food prices get higher. Dilapidated roads, housing projects that were started yet never get finished, promise of electricity and water moving into semi rural area's that fall through for the fact the government doesn't have the money yet they make promises.

When you spend more money that you make it tends to hurt after awhile and that's whats happening in Belarus. Belarus just doesn't have the market for their products. After their trade pact with Russia which means any cars brought from the outside into Belarus get taxed 40% it tends to hurt. If you have ever been on the major highways in Belarus like the road to Brest from Minsk, or better yet the one to Moscow from Minsk you know exactly what I'm saying on here. It shows more and more every year, and more and more young people leave the country...especially to Russia in search of work. Belarus is BROKE.

I never said on here Belarusians hate Russians, I said they are envious of what Russians have...did you ever ask yourself once why so many Belarusians leave to Russia and other country's in search of work ? It's not for the change of weather. When you have bus loads of Russian tourist in Minsk in the summer spending money like theirs no tomorrow did you think Belarusians don't envy this ? They see Russian news channels...or they used to until Lukashenko pretty much put an end to that, but they are hip to what Russians have and they don't have and most likely never will seeing how they are an isolated island for the most part. They are not a part of the EU, they don't have Russia's natural resources...they have pretty much jack sh*t other than bread, dairy products, and a few outdated tractor and truck plants.

[james&olya 1,121]

they have pretty much jack sh*t other than bread, dairy products, and a few outdated tractor and truck plants.

Sounds like a backwards Wisconsin but without the GB Packers! Do they have beer?

[rika60607 215]

Why_me,

For political freedoms I will say nothing, as I do not think they exist in Belarus.

For economics... industry may be going down, but trading is up.

Dilapidated roads and housing projects are the opposite of what my relatives report, so may be there are well off regions and dilapidated regions. And for Belarus being broke... how do you explain real estate prices? They went up and they are pretty darn high (over $100K for an apartment not even in Minsk). How can anyone afford buying any of that real estate if things are so bad for everyone?

You may see Belarus as being broke because you compare to the US. I compare to Russia.

[rika60607 215]

Okay, you only said that Belarussians resent Russians, not that they hate them.

Belarusians like the influx of money Russian tourist bring in, but they resent the Russians for this all the same...that and the Russian tourist there (not all but some) are usually loud and over bearing (condescending) to a point.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Sounds like a backwards Wisconsin but without the GB Packers! Do they have beer?

Heinekin and Tuborg for cheap !

Seriously though they are isolated for the most part. The younger generation ...especially the ones who have traveled to and EU country want the chance to join the EU and the rest of the modern world. They live under a repressive dictatorship with no hopes of getting anything decent job / money wise in Belarus. It's the old crowd that loves Lukashenko and his old Soviet ways, the younger ones know better, and they want out...that or a change. No chance of change, so they leave. Belarus is like some back water sh*t hole stuck in a time warp. Poland, the Baltics...all have taken off since the fall of the USSR...but not Belarus. Even with the ####### economy's in the Baltics atm over the recent recession they still have it over Belarus 10x's over.

[rika60607 215]

With much help from the EU, no? That same help which is unavailable to Belarus?...

No wonder.

Poland, the Baltics...all have taken off since the fall of the USSR...but not Belarus. Even with the ####### economy's in the Baltics atm over the recent recession they still have it over Belarus 10x's over.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Why_me,

For political freedoms I will say nothing, as I do not think they exist in Belarus.

For economics... industry may be going down, but trading is up.

Dilapidated roads and housing projects are the opposite of what my relatives report, so may be there are well off regions and dilapidated regions. And for Belarus being broke... how do you explain real estate prices? They went up and they are pretty darn high (over $100K for an apartment not even in Minsk). How can anyone afford buying any of that real estate if things are so bad for everyone?

You may see Belarus as being broke because you compare to the US. I compare to Russia.

I can only vouch for Minsk Oblast...and that's the richest of them all. Housing prices may be up...but how many of those houses and apts. are actually moving...being sold ? You ever read "tut.by" ? They have the classified section on there along with Luka's fantasy neighborhoods that he plans on building. Other than that gated community you see when leaving Minsk on the East Road, you don't see jack. Fifteen minutes out of town on the East Road, or even the Road heading north towards Zhodino you start seeing houses with no electricity and water. That's only fifteen miles from Minsk...well before you get to MSQ (air port). Brest and Grodno by the looks of it aren't doing any better.