Putin proposes scrapping visas between Russia, US

[ONA 133]

First off I am not Belarusian, and secondly I don't plan on bombing any Russian subways. But if I was Belarusian, and I did want to get rid of that dictator, then I would cut him off at the source.

Yep, babushkas, students, immigrants (including Belarusians and including illegal immigrants from other FSU countries) sponsor Lukashenko! great!

A lot of people in the world do not agree with the US policy, or any other country's policy, but nobody NOBODY has a right to use it trying to justify terrorism.

So, I'm not going to change my mind and I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you.

Some questions ONA and please answer them honestly

1) Who continues to give Belarus billions of dollars in interest free loans ?

If you're talking about the power plant deal, as far as I know, the loan question is still open, Russia expects giving a loan for 25 years with interest rate 1-1.5%, with the ability to change it.

2) Who supply's Belarus with way below market price engergy ?

Gazprom, I assume. Is it bad for Belarusians that they pay less than... let's say Ukrainians? Sorry, I didn't know... Kind of got used to the thing that Ukrainians wanted the old rate.

Russia has tried to raise it though, several times, which resulted in serious mess.

3) Who openly criticized the OSCE in regards to their ridicule of rigged presidential elections in Belarus (other than Lukashenko) *hint...Kremlin ring any bells? ?

Every country does what's good for it. the important question is WHY and we alrady talked about it. Go back and read about the ways Russia's trying to keep NATO as far from its borders as possible.

4) Why do Russian presidents call Lukashenko congratulating him every time he wins his "rigged elections" ?

Russia needs good relations with Belarus.

Putin congradulated Yuschenko in 2005 after Orange Revolution.

Have you heard anything about diplomacy?

5) Why don't Russians give two sh*ts in regards to their government financially supporting the repressive regime running Belarus ?

Why do all Russians have to care about Belarus? We care about being able to see our relatives and friends in FSU countries, that's why it's important to have good relationships established. And there are people, who are from Russia, but they fet arrested in belarus too. Don't pretend like you don't know about it.

And finally, this was actually about Libya, but it also fits here. Just a quotation from an American news article:

Adds Rand's Dobbins: "What we've learned over the last 20 years is that overthrowing objectionable governments is easy; replacing them with something good is hard. The U.S. doesn't want to get saddled with the transition."

See, the USA have made some mistakes, but they also learned something from it. Maybe you should learn too?

But you'll probably never hear me, seems like you don't even want to listen. You really should learn about Russia more before saying all that bs.

Edited March 20, 2011 by ONA

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Yep, babushkas, students, immigrants (including Belarusians and including illegal immigrants from other FSU countries) sponsor Lukashenko! great!

A lot of people in the world do not agree with the US policy, or any other country's policy, but nobody NOBODY has a right to use it trying to justify terrorism.

So, I'm not going to change my mind and I'm not even sure why I'm still talking to you.

ONA your one of my favorite posters on here...and that's no bs. Where just having a debate is all. It's not your fault that the Kremlin supports the ongoing repression of the citizens of Belarus. It's nothing personal.

If you're talking about the power plant deal, as far as I know, the loan question is still open, Russia expects giving a loan for 25 years with interest rate 1-1.5%, with the ability to change it.

No ONA, I'm talking about billions of dollars in loans from the Kremlin to Lukashenko over the past decade and a half. You really should have checked out those links I posted. If so you would know that the Kremlin not only helped that repressive Soviet style dictator into power, the Kremlin has kept him in power. No loans, Belarus goes broke, and that means no more Lukashenko. It's called supporting a dictator aka Lukashenko. It's the Kremlin who put him in power, and it's the Kremlin who helps keep him in power.

Gazprom, I assume. Is it bad for Belarusians that they pay less than... let's say Ukrainians? Sorry, I didn't know... Kind of got used to the thing that Ukrainians wanted the old rate.

Russia has tried to raise it though, several times, which resulted in serious mess.

FYI Gazprom is the Kremlin. It is a Russian government owned company. Medvedev aka Tsar Putin's puppet was chairman of Gazprom until Tsar Putin appointed him president of Russia. Google "Gazprom". But that's another story...

Tell me how Russia is doing "Belarusians a favor" by giving Lukashenko cheap below the market gas ? If Lukashenko doesn't get that cheap gas, Belarus goes cold, and next thing you know they get rid of that despot. It's simple...don't feed the bear, and the bear will go away. Russia controls the gas, it doesn't need the gas line running through Belarus with Nordstream up and running, so why does the Kremlin feed Lukashenko cheap gas and billions of dollars in loans knowing full well Belarus has no possible way of every paying Russia back ?

Every country does what's good for it. the important question is WHY and we alrady talked about it. Go back and read about the ways Russia's trying to keep NATO as far from its borders as possible.

Russia "doing what's good for it" has caused misery and brutality to the peoples of Belarus. Russia could give two sh*ts about the lives of Belarusians as long as it doesn't join the EU. Why would Belarus join NATO ? I can think of a few reasons myself...just like the same reason(s) every former Eastern European country with the exception of Ukraine joined NATO. Nobody in Europe trust Russia. They do business with Russia for the fact they need Russia's gas and oil...but they neither like nor trust the Kremlin and for good reason. Russia loves their dictators and they long for the return of the Soviet Union...just like they replaced the Russian national anthem with that old Soviet relic. Same with the May Day parades in Red Square, and Lenin's tomb. Nothing has changed with the Russian mentality...sans the reason everyone and their brother in Eastern Europe begged NATO to take them in. It's called "Dzerhava" and we both know what that is.

Russia needs good relations with Belarus.

Putin congradulated Yuschenko in 2005 after Orange Revolution.

Have you heard anything about diplomacy?

Yuschenko didn't rig the elections. Yushenko didn't beat and murder the opposition. Yushenko didn't nationalize every media outlet in Belarus, and ban the others. He didn't change the Ukrainian Constitution to give him unlimited powers including rigging every election and letting him be president forever..or until he died. He wasn't a "DICTATOR". It's called freedom and democracy and Belarus has neither. Yushenko didn't have his Russian trained KGB arrest the entire Congress of Ukraine and replace them with his Soviet loving crony's. Do you see the difference between Yushenko and Lukashenko ? Big difference there.

Why do all Russians have to care about Belarus? We care about being able to see our relatives and friends in FSU countries, that's why it's important to have good relationships established. And there are people, who are from Russia, but they fet arrested in belarus too. Don't pretend like you don't know about it.

Some Russians do care. There were Russians who were in the mass protest in Minsk after this last election. They are still sitting in a Belarusian jail atm. If Russia (Kremlin) actually cared about the peoples of Belarus then they wouldn't support the dictatorship there would they ? I mean I wasn't born yesterday nor were you. Let's think about this. If you care about someone do you support the person that's beating them senseless or do you do something about it to stop the beating ? Russia has the power to get rid of Lukashenko but choose to support him and his wicked ways.

And finally, this was actually about Libya, but it also fits here. Just a quotation from an American news article:

See, the USA have made some mistakes, but they also learned something from it. Maybe you should learn too?

But you'll probably never hear me, seems like you don't even want to listen. You really should learn about Russia more before saying all that bs.

I'm not sure how Libya fits into this convo. The US isn't bombing Libya for democracy and freedom. Anyone that believes that needs a clue imo. The US is bombing the sh*t out of Libya for one thing, and one thing only: Oil. It's the same reason we invaded Iraq...not for "WMD's" nor was it to help the repressed people there, it was for oil and gas.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Why_Me

[AmyWrites 593]

Meh, all countries support or ignore dictators and repressive governments as long as it's practical for them.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Meh, all countries support or ignore dictators and repressive governments as long as it's practical for them.

Agree with that 100%. Unfortunately my wife's family and friends and a few of my friends suffer under a repressive dictatorship with about zero chance of change because of Russia's foreign policy in regards to Belarus. How long must Belarus suffer ?

[Neonred 3,562]

Agree with that 100%. Unfortunately my wife's family and friends and a few of my friends suffer under a repressive dictatorship with about zero chance of change because of Russia's foreign policy in regards to Belarus. How long must Belarus suffer ?

I don't know much about the politics in Belarus, but it seems to me the problems lie more with the people in Belarus than the Russian influence. Neighboring countries like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia seem to have gotten away from excessive Russian influence. Ukraine to a lessor degree. Several Middle Eastern countries such as Egypt, Tunisia, and possibly Libya are overthrowing a repressive dictatorship. Time for people in Belarus to take a stand.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I don't know much about the politics in Belarus, but it seems to me the problems lie more with the people in Belarus than the Russian influence. Neighboring countries like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia seem to have gotten away from excessive Russian influence. Ukraine to a lessor degree. Several Middle Eastern countries such as Egypt, Tunisia, and possibly Libya are overthrowing a repressive dictatorship. Time for people in Belarus to take a stand.

Like Georgia?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I don't know much about the politics in Belarus, but it seems to me the problems lie more with the people in Belarus than the Russian influence. Neighboring countries like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia seem to have gotten away from excessive Russian influence. Ukraine to a lessor degree. Several Middle Eastern countries such as Egypt, Tunisia, and possibly Libya are overthrowing a repressive dictatorship. Time for people in Belarus to take a stand.

Agreed 100% more Belarusians need to get involved with over throwing Lukashenko and I believe it will happen sooner or later. As the old Soviet generation dies off, the younger generation will have more voice.

There's a major difference though between the Baltic country's and Belarus in regards to leaning West. The Baltics had their "Singing Revolution" right after the Wall came down in Berlin, and they were never lovers of Russians. As soon as they got their freedom from the Kremlin the West (Reagan) took them into NATO. Total different scenario.

A few little known facts in regards to Belarus. That country has the highest number of police & secret service per capita in Europe. There are no independent news / media sources in Belarus. Students attending university's outside (Poland especially) get questioned when they come back home. There have been more than a few times when a Belarusian student attending a Polish university was picked up and questioned on what classes they were taking, names of other Belarusian's they met while there, any organizations they know of in regards to the opposition, etc... In Belarus it's even illegal to have a shirt of a EU flag. Internet there get's censored, etc... It's no joke there.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Why_Me