All the drama was for naught: Wisconsin Senate Passes Bill

[Zero Sum 305]

4 bananas instead of 3, just to keep that bitterness down.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Walker/West 2012!

[mawilson 2,133]

The lone Democrat present on the conference committee, Rep. Tony Barca, shouted that the surprise meeting was a violation of the state's open meetings law but Republicans voted over his objections.

Sucks when your silly little tricks backfire, doesn't it?

Yes, keep telling yourself it's those big, ugly unions that are destroying America

They sure as hell destroyed Detroit.

[JohnSmith2007 353]

They sure as hell destroyed Detroit.

Word

[Zero Sum 305]

I thought is was the manufacture of ####### cars that doomed the Detroit car makers to closing down those factories; hence, the loss of employment. Its a real crapfest when we misrepresent unions as responsible for something they're not. Were the unions responsible for designing, procuring parts, and authorizing raw material use for the factories? I think now. More like it was those that now continue to try to bust unions that were only interested in maximizing their profit margin could be to blame, IF we want to make silly, one track assumptions in our arguments.

[mawilson 2,133]

I thought is was the manufacture of ####### cars that doomed the Detroit car makers

Nope - the cars were not the problem.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I thought is was the manufacture of ####### cars that doomed the Detroit car makers to closing down those factories; hence, the loss of employment. Its a real crapfest when we misrepresent unions as responsible for something they're not. Were the unions responsible for designing, procuring parts, and authorizing raw material use for the factories? I think now. More like it was those that now continue to try to bust unions that were only interested in maximizing their profit margin could be to blame, IF we want to make silly, one track assumptions in our arguments.

No, Zero. It wasn't GM's fault that they adopted a different corporate model than their Japanese and German competitors.

[Zero Sum 305]

Nope - the cars were not the problem.

I see. Thanks. It must have been those bloodthirsty union employees, making cars that couldn't compete. Lets forget about corporate decision-making. They didn't control the factories after all.

[mawilson 2,133]

I see. Thanks. It must have been those bloodthirsty union employees, making cars that couldn't compete. Lets forget about corporate decision-making. They didn't control the factories after all.

Steve Rattner, the Obama administration’s former "car czar" who has a book out about the

bailing out of General Motors and Chrysler, gives an interesting summary of his first

impressions of Detroit to Peter Lattman in the New York Times:

So, for example, I found that the culture in Detroit, and at General Motors in

particular, was even more bureaucratic and more stultified than what I would have guessed

before I got there. The financial controls were far weaker than anything I would’ve

imagined before I got there. On the positive side, GM had better projects than I would’ve

imagined and it had also brought its manufacturing efficiency to a much higher level than

I would’ve predicted.

That can be summarised as: GM was a terrible company making surprisingly good cars. Or:

Detroit itself was in a bad way, whereas its manufacturing plants were healthy.

We shall see whether the “new GM” proves more energetic and disciplined in the long-term

but this could be an argument for moving the headquarters of the Big Three out of Detroit

and its surrounding areas, much as Boeing moved from Seattle to Chicago 10 years ago.

If the fundamental problem is the ingrained corporate culture at HQ, that is a reason to

blow it up and move somewhere else entirely. Alan Mulally, Ford’s chief executive, is a

former executive of Boeing, incidentally.

link

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

No, Zero. It wasn't GM's fault that they adopted a different corporate model than their Japanese and German competitors.

You mean, by not offering an unsustainable defined benefits plan for their employees?

[Zero Sum 305]

Steve Rattner, the Obama administration’s former "car czar" who has a book out about the

bailing out of General Motors and Chrysler, gives an interesting summary of his first

impressions of Detroit to Peter Lattman in the New York Times:

That can be summarised as: GM was a terrible company making surprisingly good cars. Or:

Detroit itself was in a bad way, whereas its manufacturing plants were healthy.

We shall see whether the “new GM” proves more energetic and disciplined in the long-term

but this could be an argument for moving the headquarters of the Big Three out of Detroit

and its surrounding areas, much as Boeing moved from Seattle to Chicago 10 years ago.

If the fundamental problem is the ingrained corporate culture at HQ, that is a reason to

blow it up and move somewhere else entirely. Alan Mulally, Ford’s chief executive, is a

former executive of Boeing, incidentally.

link

That's an excellent account. Thanks again.

You mean, by not offering an unsustainable defined benefits plan for their employees?

What are the Germans or Japanese offering their employees? Being an issue of competitiveness...

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I would say labor played 20% of the role in detroits decline, same with management. If you really want to know why the US auto industry suffered in the 80s/90s/00s its because of the Japanese. They simply were better at making automobiles and they had newer facilities to manufacture them in.

Part of this is because of World War 2. The US was the manufacturing HQ for the world from the 1940s-1960s because it was the only manufacturer that hadn't been bombed to rubble...everyone else was rebuilding. This was an advantage for a while, but a handicap later on as Germany/Japan etc. built modern facilities and the US was paying the costs of retooling antiquated ones. I think the 80s were the turning point for this.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

PS. Either the republicans of wisconsin are morons for taking so long to find this loophole, or they were afraid their true intentions would be revealed as Steven said, and simply lost patience. Take your pick.

[Zero Sum 305]

Can both options be used? Either way, the true nature of this beast should be clearly easy to spot now.

[Dan J 277]

Steve Rattner, the Obama administration’s former "car czar" who has a book out about the

bailing out of General Motors and Chrysler, gives an interesting summary of his first

impressions of Detroit to Peter Lattman in the New York Times:

That can be summarised as: GM was a terrible company making surprisingly good cars. Or:

Detroit itself was in a bad way, whereas its manufacturing plants were healthy.

We shall see whether the “new GM” proves more energetic and disciplined in the long-term

but this could be an argument for moving the headquarters of the Big Three out of Detroit

and its surrounding areas, much as Boeing moved from Seattle to Chicago 10 years ago.

If the fundamental problem is the ingrained corporate culture at HQ, that is a reason to

blow it up and move somewhere else entirely. Alan Mulally, Ford’s chief executive, is a

former executive of Boeing, incidentally.

link

I think its more complicated than that.

Management at the big three did agree to the union contracts in the end, but I think they did so at a time when it was possible to honor them.

But the market changed, as it always does, the Japanese and Germans stared offering products in the US market that were better for roughly the same cost. Now, you can either improve your quality to compete, which requires culture changes that didn't happen very easily at any level of the company, or drop your price to place your products at a market point they actually belonged in, which they could not do because of the union agreements they made in the past.

There is always a market for lower quality products if the are priced appropriately.

PS. Either the republicans of wisconsin are morons for taking so long to find this loophole, or they were afraid their true intentions would be revealed as Steven said, and simply lost patience. Take your pick.

How long before Wisconsin joins Russia in making democracy a farce.