Seniority vs Competence in Teacher Lay-offs

[Zero Sum 305]

This is a perfect issue to make public. Air on TV, CSPAN-style, all collective bargaining proceedings between school boards and teacher unions when it comes to negotiating seniority vs competence in rounds of lay-offs.

[jundp 191]

It should be based on competence of the teacher, and not on seniority. Most especially it should NOT be based on student test scores. Student test scores do not judge student ability or teacher ability and the sooner we get away from that way of thinking, the better for all involved. There are amazing, innovative, intelligent, capable, and dedicated teachers in classrooms with kids who continue to get Ds, but who are doing their very best (the kids) and who will never get higher than a D. In some school districts the test score is the Almighty and it doesn't matter if kids retain the information or if they just learn it long enough to spit it out on a test.

I'd rather my students learn and retain information through a variety of means, including experiential and practical learning.

I am not allowed to be part of a union due to my district.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

And who and how is going to judge whether a teacher is competent ? An individual such as a lone principle ? And what if a principle has a hard on against a certain teacher and rates said teacher low for other reasons than competancy ?

Seniority may not be perfect but it's the best going atm. The workers in our hall get job bids based on seniority for the fact they paid their dues and they earned it.

[^_^ 5,021]

Seniority may not be perfect but it's the best going atm. The workers in our hall get job bids based on seniority for the fact they paid their dues and they earned it.

Union scum

[^_^ 5,021]

And who and how is going to judge whether a teacher is competent ? An individual such as a lone principle ? And what if a principle has a hard on against a certain teacher and rates said teacher low for other reasons than competancy ?

Seniority may not be perfect but it's the best going atm. The workers in our hall get job bids based on seniority for the fact they paid their dues and they earned it.

That happens a lot in my current (non unionized, obviously) workplace. Once an employee gets targeted by certain individuals in management, his or her days are over. Suddenly the assignments become no-win type #######, then review time comes and they say you didn't do much. Then they put you on a 'program' to remedy your 'behavior' and give you even worse assignments and eventually you fail and are pushed out the door. What is strange about it all is that this process takes upward of a year. Why don't they just fire you if they don't like you? I never did understand that.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Union scum

There have been many cases where union workers have not only taken pay cuts, but they purchased stock in a company to keep it on it's feet after management ran it into the ground. Some company's like a certain airline in Oklahoma got screwed by management after the union workers got the company back on it's feet. After years of losing money, the company went into the black for the first time, so what did the suits do ? They game themselves all bonuses totaling into the millions.

Ya, that's suits for you. Let's not even get into golden parachutes.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

That happens a lot in my current (non unionized, obviously) workplace. Once an employee gets targeted by certain individuals in management, his or her days are over. Suddenly the assignments become no-win type #######, then review time comes and they say you didn't do much. Then they put you on a 'program' to remedy your 'behavior' and give you even worse assignments and eventually you fail and are pushed out the door. What is strange about it all is that this process takes upward of a year. Why don't they just fire you if they don't like you? I never did understand that.

Iv'e seen it time and again. The non union outfits up on the slope will lay off a guy who is a great worker but doesn't have any ties to anyone and then hire their relative. One guy even met his replacement when he ended up flying out a day later than planned due to weather issues. Of course his replacement was the foreman's son...who had like zero experience.

[^_^ 5,021]

Iv'e seen it time and again. The non union outfits up on the slope will lay off a guy who is a great worker but doesn't have any ties to anyone and then hire their relative. One guy even met his replacement when he ended up flying out a day later than planned due to weather issues. Of course his replacement was the foreman's son...who had like zero experience.

It probably helps (a lot) that the inexperienced foreman's son cost a lot less than the experienced guy he was replacing.

[jundp 191]

And who and how is going to judge whether a teacher is competent ? An individual such as a lone principle ? And what if a principle has a hard on against a certain teacher and rates said teacher low for other reasons than competancy ?

Seniority may not be perfect but it's the best going atm. The workers in our hall get job bids based on seniority for the fact they paid their dues and they earned it.

We have a portfolio, observation, and self-observation process at my school. I know plenty of teachers with "seniority" who don't bother to improve because they know their jobs are safe. Why bother to attend seminars, take classes to learn new ideas, grade papers in a timely manner, come up with new ideas for class, etc. if you know you don't have to because you can't be fired?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Iv'e seen it time and again. The non union outfits up on the slope will lay off a guy who is a great worker but doesn't have any ties to anyone and then hire their relative. One guy even met his replacement when he ended up flying out a day later than planned due to weather issues. Of course his replacement was the foreman's son...who had like zero experience.

If it is a privately owned company, then what is the problem? Owners and managers should be able to hire who they want. This isn't France, after all.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

We have a portfolio, observation, and self-observation process at my school. I know plenty of teachers with "seniority" who don't bother to improve because they know their jobs are safe. Why bother to attend seminars, take classes to learn new ideas, grade papers in a timely manner, come up with new ideas for class, etc. if you know you don't have to because you can't be fired?

Out of pluses.

Similarly, in our local school district, senior teachers are put in holding patterns, that prevent the hiring of qualified math and science teachers. The kids lose.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

It probably helps (a lot) that the inexperienced foreman's son cost a lot less than the experienced guy he was replacing.

Not those cases. The company's up there(BP, Conaoco, Shell, ENI, etc..) have so much $$$$$$$$$$$$$ they don't even pay attention. No bs, new non union workers...no matter how good they are start getting nervous come June when graduation time hits. Unless a guy is in a skilled position, he knows he can get the ax just so some bosses son can get into the loop and start making some real $. It's depressing to see a middle aged guy who's a decent worker and has a family to pay for get the ax so that some spoiled snot nosed 18 year old who's related to someone with pull take his place.

[jundp 191]

Out of pluses.

Similarly, in our local school district, senior teachers are put in holding patterns, that prevent the hiring of qualified math and science teachers. The kids lose.

It's mind-boggling. Most of us teach because we love it and we're here for the kids. I've seen excellent teachers fired because they were only a couple of years into their careers. As with anything, there are great teachers of all levels of experience and they should be rewarded and keep their jobs.

Our principal is not the only one who decides who stays and who goes. As I said, we have a process of evaluation and it works pretty well. It's amazing how much a teacher will improve when they know they are being held accountable. I think I'm a pretty good teacher and I appreciate the evaluation process because it's a way for me to learn and improve.

Seniority should never be the only reason a person keeps his or her job.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

And who and how is going to judge whether a teacher is competent ? An individual such as a lone principle ? And what if a principle has a hard on against a certain teacher and rates said teacher low for other reasons than competancy ?

Seniority may not be perfect but it's the best going atm. The workers in our hall get job bids based on seniority for the fact they paid their dues and they earned it.

Why should teachers be protected more than any other worker?

There doesn't have to be tenure. The Union can go to bat for a teacher who is being targeted by a principal who is "unjustly" after that teacher.