Marriage Fraud, Divorce and a life on hold . . .

[rlogan 2,036]

Neither pursued an annulment. She did not make enough and he could care less of course.

Hey, thanks for that personal event.

The best part of it is in terms of how difficult it is for Filipino domestic annullment by comparison to dissolution or no-fault divorce in the U.S.

Exactly so. I do not mean to trivialize this.

One thing that helps with foreign marriages of course is the Marriage/Divorce treaty so that the Philippines' intransigence about domestic divorce is attenuated by the treaty forcing them to recognize one granted abroad.

There are a lot of things that are different about your personal story of course, and we need to understand that: a domestic marriage that over a long period drifted apart, etc.

My observation is that a lot of husbands just walk away from their wives in the Philippines, and don't pay for their childrens' upkeep. There's no child support enforcement there - at least I sure don't see it - so why bother doing it. Domestic divorce they say is possible for the rich, but not the poor. I understand the scene.

When someone is coming off a two-year foreign marriage scam I don't have a lot of sympathy with the poverty argument. I understand that they don't want to sell the karaoke machine and all the other little treasures. They don't want to work until they have to. I understand it, but am not granting empathy to it.

Because I am thinking about the guy who had his guts ripped out, defrauded for years. His hopes and dreams. The money, sure - but most especially his person. This is a really cruel thing to do. It's grave.

A case is being made about a "real" foreign marriage being the girl's life dream. I may misunderstand that, but that is my read of it. By virtue of extended family logic in the Philippines it is the dream of the extended family too.

The case is made she is intelligent. A person of great sacrifice. Were this me though, I'd want a big pile of measureable evidence. For one thing, what did she ever do with this Japanese guy to at least assuage some of the harm? Sell some of the items obtained by fraud and give him back the proceeds? I picked up that she accepted responsibility for it, but personally I want to see the recognition of the harm done to that Japanese man and what sacrifice was made to him, if we are presenting a case of self-sacrifice and real acceptance of responsibility.

Accountability. It's the difference between "we accept responsibility, but we got away with it" and "we accept responsibility and made ourselves accountable as best we could". Then the record, in the interim before meeting the new foreign suitor.

He's going to see for himself, and that's a very good idea. On a video chat you can put on an act easier than you can in-person for days on end.

But thanks mjaye65 yea, divorce is more difficult there. Domestic especially.

Edited February 26, 2011 by rlogan

[mjaye65 5]

yea, just do the philippine annulment proceedings otherwise she will have troubles leaving PI.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Hey, thanks for that personal event.

The best part of it is in terms of how difficult it is for Filipino domestic annullment by comparison to dissolution or no-fault divorce in the U.S.

Exactly so. I do not mean to trivialize this.

One thing that helps with foreign marriages of course is the Marriage/Divorce treaty so that the Philippines' intransigence about domestic divorce is attenuated by the treaty forcing them to recognize one granted abroad.

There are a lot of things that are different about your personal story of course, and we need to understand that: a domestic marriage that over a long period drifted apart, etc.

My observation is that a lot of husbands just walk away from their wives in the Philippines, and don't pay for their childrens' upkeep. There's no child support enforcement there - at least I sure don't see it - so why bother doing it. Domestic divorce they say is possible for the rich, but not the poor. I understand the scene.

When someone is coming off a two-year foreign marriage scam I don't have a lot of sympathy with the poverty argument. I understand that they don't want to sell the karaoke machine and all the other little treasures. They don't want to work until they have to. I understand it, but am not granting empathy to it.

Because I am thinking about the guy who had his guts ripped out, defrauded for years. His hopes and dreams. The money, sure - but most especially his person. This is a really cruel thing to do. It's grave.

A case is being made about a "real" foreign marriage being the girl's life dream. I may misunderstand that, but that is my read of it. By virtue of extended family logic in the Philippines it is the dream of the extended family too.

The case is made she is intelligent. A person of great sacrifice. Were this me though, I'd want a big pile of measureable evidence. For one thing, what did she ever do with this Japanese guy to at least assuage some of the harm? Sell some of the items obtained by fraud and give him back the proceeds? I picked up that she accepted responsibility for it, but personally I want to see the recognition of the harm done to that Japanese man and what sacrifice was made to him, if we are presenting a case of self-sacrifice and real acceptance of responsibility.

Accountability. It's the difference between "we accept responsibility, but we got away with it" and "we accept responsibility and made ourselves accountable as best we could". Then the record, in the interim before meeting the new foreign suitor.

He's going to see for himself, and that's a very good idea. On a video chat you can put on an act easier than you can in-person for days on end.

But thanks mjaye65 yea, divorce is more difficult there. Domestic especially.

It wasn't clear to me that the marriage to the Japanese guy was fraud. She may have gone into that marriage with honest intentions. It's very possible for her to be ashamed of the situation without doing anything wrong. Just getting divorced would be considered shameful.

My understanding of the proper way to proceed would be for her to present the divorce papers to the Philippine court so the Philippines goverment recognizes the divorce. I think I read on here previously that it would cost more than $500 to accomplish that.

Once that is done, She would just apply like everyone else.(Her new husband or Fiance would apply). If she has the divorce papers from Japan, I believe that would be more of a sure thing than an annulment. I believe the divorce papers would be more of an official filing.

The annulment would be at a judges discretion, and while it could probably be bought, I don't think she would meet honestly meet the requirements of an annulment.

[SunDrop 59]

Speak to this member, Adam and May. I believe if memory serves me right that they had to go through a Japanese divorce registration, filing from the Philippines.

[calibob 73]

Best to do it right the first time. By the book. Get the cenomar clearance, then marry without fear or reproach. If you think you can "get over" then you will be had in the end so save yourself, your wife and all involved the drama and stress........it'll take longer sure, but it will be more time to build and cement the relationship. Best of luck!!

Bob

[Tahoma 2,292]

Hi Poodle Guy...Here's my take on a potential K-1 for you and Jane:

> Jane will not qualify for a K-1 visa at the Embassy level unless a Petition for the Recognition of a Foreign Judgement of Divorce is noted on her NSO CEMAR.

> Jane does not need an annulment because her divorce was initiated by the foreigner.

When you visit Jane, you might want to have a look at her CEMAR for yourself. Also, get a CENOMAR for her maiden name too.

[rlogan 2,036]

It wasn't clear to me that the marriage to the Japanese guy was fraud.

I also hesitated about what to think.

But it was in the title of the post. The very first words: "Marriage Fraud..." We have to accept what he called it.

Naturally, we don't want to write a post about the details of the fraud when what we are interested in doing is turning her life around.

If this guy had written about all of the details of the multiple-year fraud and then asked if he should be in a relationship with this person, he would have gotten very different advice.

[Mark and Rassel 9]

When someone is coming off a two-year foreign marriage scam I don't have a lot of sympathy with the poverty argument. I understand that they don't want to sell the karaoke machine and all the other little treasures. They don't want to work until they have to. I understand it, but am not granting empathy to it.

He's going to see for himself, and that's a very good idea. On a video chat you can put on an act easier than you can in-person for days on end.

But thanks mjaye65 yea, divorce is more difficult there. Domestic especially.

According to Jane, this was a 'set' marriage If I understand the term correctly. In order to be in Japan, she married a Japanese citizen and paid him 50,000 Y per/month (~400.00 US?) for this 'privilege'. She stated she did this so she could help get her sister out of possible run-in with Japanese immigration. I won't go into details, but it seemed on the face of it to be credible. She also sent a good bit of it home as well. She stated that her father had just passed away; this mess and 4 1/2 years of chemical engineering education up on smoke - she had one more semester to complete her studies. She has a number of siblings that are foreign countries that are work as engineers in a variety of specialties. She also stated that except for her sister and mother, the rest of the family and friends are clueless. She is suspected of being lesbian, and even some of her posted Facebook images has references to that in a joking sort of way. I remember on where she is dressed up as a bridesmaid with the caption "Brides Maid Forever?". These of course, could be fabricated for appearance sake for an interested guy . . . . It would be a rather elaborate ruse . . .but possible. The marriage fraud was not perpetrated in the manner of classic 'honey pot' faux marriage. If she is truthful, then I think that both her sister and her and the Japanese 'husband' got the better end of this deal. Her impulsive responsive of 'sure I'll help sis' lead to another couple of missteps (non-illegal) that have really turned her life upside down.

The Poodle Guy

[rlogan 2,036]

According to Jane, this was a 'set' marriage If I understand the term correctly. In order to be in Japan, she married a Japanese citizen and paid him 50,000 Y per/month (~400.00 US?) for this 'privilege'. She stated she did this so she could help get her sister out of possible run-in with Japanese immigration. I won't go into details, but it seemed on the face of it to be credible. She also sent a good bit of it home as well. She stated that her father had just passed away; this mess and 4 1/2 years of chemical engineering education up on smoke - she had one more semester to complete her studies. She has a number of siblings that are foreign countries that are work as engineers in a variety of specialties. She also stated that except for her sister and mother, the rest of the family and friends are clueless. She is suspected of being lesbian, and even some of her posted Facebook images has references to that in a joking sort of way. I remember on where she is dressed up as a bridesmaid with the caption "Brides Maid Forever?". These of course, could be fabricated for appearance sake for an interested guy . . . . It would be a rather elaborate ruse . . .but possible. The marriage fraud was not perpetrated in the manner of classic 'honey pot' faux marriage. If she is truthful, then I think that both her sister and her and the Japanese 'husband' got the better end of this deal. Her impulsive responsive of 'sure I'll help sis' lead to another couple of missteps (non-illegal) that have really turned her life upside down.

The Poodle Guy

Thank you for clarifying that it was not a "honeypot" fraud where the Japanese guy was fooled. Instead it was a fraudulent marriage against the Japanese government that both of them participated in.

I can't figure out how a second immigration fraud would help her sister out of some previous immigration trouble (fraud?). But one thing about scammers is that their stories are always convoluted into noble causes. Even serial killers do this - freeing the world of lowly prostitutes for example.

The other stuff about being a lesbian and the whole cryptic nature of needing to conceal details - this is a sea of red flags.

From this discussion and our PM's you seem like nice guy, and boy howdy there are so many beautiful fish in that Filippine ocean.

[Boiler 45,525]

Just be glad that you are not involved

[Mark and Rassel 9]

Yup,

If she's a scammer, which she very could be - she failed. If she's not, then there is still very little I can do other than offer moral support, a shoulder to cry on, and perhaps names of people that can help. In order for her regain any self-respect, she must lift herself out of this mess. She has resources to pull it off . . . We'll see what she does with what she has.

Regards,

The Poodle Guy

[Tahoma 2,292]

...It would be a rather elaborate ruse . . .but possible.

It certainly would not be an elaborate ruse for a dedicated full-time scammer. She may good at the long con and have several guys sending her money. Or, she simply may be scamming you for a Green Card. Always be on your guard. Above all, don't send money until you have met her in-person and are convinced that she's legitimate.

Some ideas if you feel the need to check her out:

> Spend enough time in 'Pinas in order to get to know her family and friends.

> Check her passport to see if she's who she says she is, and that she's been to the places she says she's been to.

> Order a CENOMAR for each name she's used to check out for any and all marriages.

> Order her college transcripts to see if her story about her schooling checks out.

> Have a Pinoy friend of yours talk to her to see if they believe she's legitimate.

[rheanick 42]

According to Jane, this was a 'set' marriage If I understand the term correctly. In order to be in Japan, she married a Japanese citizen and paid him 50,000 Y per/month (~400.00 US?) for this 'privilege'. She stated she did this so she could help get her sister out of possible run-in with Japanese immigration. I won't go into details, but it seemed on the face of it to be credible. She also sent a good bit of it home as well. She stated that her father had just passed away; this mess and 4 1/2 years of chemical engineering education up on smoke - she had one more semester to complete her studies. She has a number of siblings that are foreign countries that are work as engineers in a variety of specialties. She also stated that except for her sister and mother, the rest of the family and friends are clueless. She is suspected of being lesbian, and even some of her posted Facebook images has references to that in a joking sort of way. I remember on where she is dressed up as a bridesmaid with the caption "Brides Maid Forever?". These of course, could be fabricated for appearance sake for an interested guy . . . . It would be a rather elaborate ruse . . .but possible. The marriage fraud was not perpetrated in the manner of classic 'honey pot' faux marriage. If she is truthful, then I think that both her sister and her and the Japanese 'husband' got the better end of this deal. Her impulsive responsive of 'sure I'll help sis' lead to another couple of missteps (non-illegal) that have really turned her life upside down.

The Poodle Guy

The story seems FISHY....

either is just telling you stuff, magnifying them to get your sympahty, or she is just plain stupid. Her series of unlikely events that got her stuck makes me think she is a woman who has her brain in her foot. Im a chemical engineer myself and i find it insulting that a a woman with chemical engineering background could be this stupid. Chemical engineers are trained to be analytical.

Another observation, the marriage with a japanese is not a kind of thing that only she or her mom would know about, she got married in the philippines. For sure, the who community and her friends knows about it. Her reasoning that she is in limbo right now, the arranged marriage should be out of equation. The japanese guy divorced her which is something discussed and planned right from the very start, and its the only exit plan between the two of them. I would say she has a clean break from the "mess" she entered.

And her dad passing away and her 4.5 years of chemical engineering up on smoke. You are kidding me. Her siblings are working as engineers abroad. They could help and support her.

Personal opinion, she has an anlytical mind and she is out to get you. If you want to fall for her. Its up to you. But make sure that you are smarter than her or else, she could get whatever she wants from you and if you dont protect yourself, then you could be out with nothing.

The mere fact that you are asking her in this forum... means she got you. I guess, her tactics are effective with you..

[Pinay Wife 47]

The US Embassy will accept her Japanese divorce (regardless of who initiated it or if it's been filed with the Philippines courts for recognition in the Philippines). This means that she could get a K-1 Visa issued. That's the YES part.

Here's the NO part: To leave the Philippines with a US K-1 Visa in her passport she will need a CFO Certificate and sticker clearing her to leave the country. CFO will not issue her the certificate & sticker because in order to get it she must prove that she is free to marry but by Philippine Law she isn't.

So, while she may get the K-1 issued she will not be able to use it.

Bob, this is not correct. When a Philippine court recognizes the foreign divorce decree, she is legally free to marry, even in the Philippines. The CFO will issue the sticker once there is a court order that the divorce is recognized. They cannot disregard a court order.

Art. 26 of the Family Code of the Philippines is clear:

Where a marriage between a Filipino citizen and a foreigner is validly celebrated and a divorce is thereafter validly obtained abroad by the alien spouse capacitating him or her to remarry, the Filipino spouse shall have capacity to remarry under Philippine law.

The law, however, does carry an additional requirement of having the foreign divorce decree recognized by a Philippine court.

[Pinay Wife 47]

yea, just do the philippine annulment proceedings otherwise she will have troubles leaving PI.

Annulment is not required if the foreign spouse initiated divorce. The Filipino spouse need only to have the divorce recognized by a Philippine court.