Wisconsin Public Workers Pay for 100% of Their Pensions and Health-Care

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

No. Every cent a public private sector employee receives, in benefits, in salary, in pensions, in any form of compensation, comes from the taxpayers shareholders.

So, what we're saying, then, is that nobody actually earns anything. Instead, we're saying that the stakeholders of any enterprise that employs people employ these people not to earn money for them but only so the employers can give them money out of the goodness of their heart? Really?

[JohnSmith2007 353]

That doesn't answer the question as to why you think public service employees shouldn't be allowed the right to collective bargaining.

"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

Letter by FDR to the president of the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Letter by FDR to the president of the National Federation of Federal Employees in 1937

FDR was a great visionary and president, but he wasn't perfect and in this instance he was wrong, just like he was wrong with the internment camps.

[JohnSmith2007 353]

FDR was a great visionary and president, but he wasn't perfect and in this instance he was wrong, just like he was wrong with the internment camps.

:rofl: :rofl:

So you like FDR only when it serves your purpose. Love it Steven, never say die!

[slim 1,530]

All those public workers should just quit. That'll show 'em!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So you like FDR only when it serves your purpose. Love it Steven, never say die!

Who supports a president in everything he has said or done? You didn't support everything GW Bush said or did as president. That doesn't change the fact that overall, you supported his presidency and probably voted for him twice.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

So, what we're saying, then, is that nobody actually earns anything.

Yep. Difference is, successful (commercial) corporations produce something, and sustain themselves by selling that something, for more than the cost of producing that something. Wages are a cost of doing business.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Yep. Difference is, successful (commercial) corporations produce something, and sustain themselves by selling that something, for more than the cost of producing that something. Wages are a cost of doing business.

You're beating a dead horse when trying to explain to people how a private business works vs. Government...

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Private firms get public contracts all the time and they do so through a bidding process (bargaining), paid for through taxes. And these private firms actually turn a profit off of that tax revenue.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Yep. Difference is, successful (commercial) corporations produce something, and sustain themselves by selling that something, for more than the cost of producing that something. Wages are a cost of doing business.

Okay, so private enterprises produce a product or service which they sell at a profit. There's a value that's created and the employees receive a share of that created value. Hence, they actually earn something. The wages are a portion of the value created that is due the individual that creates it. In other words, it's not a handout.

Public entity employees create a product as well that is consumed. Teachers teach, firefighters respond to hazardous situations, prison guards ensure public safety, public transportation employees get folks from A to B, and so on and so forth. These products and services are in demand and someone ought to produce them. As these are value added products and services much like those created in private enterprises, it is hard to argue that those producing them in public entities are somehow not entitled to their share of the value that's produced. Public employees aren't slaves, you know?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Okay, so private enterprises produce a product or service which they sell at a profit. There's a value that's created and the employees receive a share of that created value. Hence, they actually earn something. The wages are a portion of the value created that is due the individual that creates it. In other words, it's not a handout.

Public entity employees create a product as well that is consumed. Teachers teach, firefighters respond to hazardous situations, prison guards ensure public safety, public transportation employees get folks from A to B, and so on and so forth. These products and services are in demand and someone ought to produce them. As these are value added products and services much like those created in private enterprises, it is hard to argue that those producing them in public entities are somehow not entitled to their share of the value that's produced. Public employees aren't slaves, you know?

Libertarians envision everything privatized, where teachers, firefighters and law enforcement are for-profit ventures contracted by state and local governments and paid for through taxes.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Libertarians envision everything privatized, where teachers, firefighters and law enforcement are for-profit ventures contracted by state and local governments and paid for through taxes.

Well, it's the next step since legislative bodies across the country are largely privatized already - i.e. legislators are primarily employees of those that have bought them their seat in the respective assembly. Looking at the result of privatizing prisons - a higher population of inmates so the industry can grow and live up to Wall Street's expectations - what would the result of privatizing local fire stations and police departments look like? More fires and crime to ensure the industries can maintain healthy growth rates?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Well, it's the next step since legislative bodies across the country are largely privatized already - i.e. legislators are primarily employees of those that have bought them their seat in the respective assembly. Looking at the result of privatizing prisons - a higher population of inmates so the industry can grow and live up to Wall Street's expectations - what would the result of privatizing local fire stations and police departments look like? More fires and crime to ensure the industries can maintain healthy growth rates?

It's actually a win-win situation for teachers. They can create their own for-profit corporation and call it, Teachers, Inc.. Then give big donations to state governors in exchange for no-bid contracts to teach in all the public schools. I think they'd actually get away with making a lot more money this way and then the Right Wingers won't complain. Problem solved.

[Zero Sum 305]

Yes but since its teachers, and we all know teachers are socialists, then those incorporations will be nothing more than sabotage of the capitalist system from the inside.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It's actually a win-win situation for teachers. They can create their own for-profit corporation and call it, Teachers, Inc.. Then give big donations to state governors in exchange for no-bid contracts to teach in all the public schools. I think they'd actually get away with making a lot more money this way and then the Right Wingers won't complain. Problem solved.

Yes, I've heard this before. I think it ran under "Ich-AG" (translation: Me, Inc.) in Germany. They scrapped it soon after it was born, however. Looked better on paper than in real life, I think.