I have a question for you gals

[SirLancelot 1]

I am an American, born and raised. I have no "Arab" blood. I love the assumptions. Muslim does necessarily mean someone of Arabian descent. There are quite a few of us "white bread Muslims" out there. And yes I'm quite aware of a lot of BS. I'm not trying to be smug with you although I know I come acrossed that way. I agree with your words. Its just that quite frankly between this process and the level of idiocy in this country towards Muslims (not Arabs... MUSLIMS) I am quite fed up with humanity in general. Last I checked freedom of religion in this country was a right. It should have come with a disclaimer I guess.

Grrrr too late to edit and too early in the morning. I MEANT to say Being Muslim does NOT necessarily mean being of Arab descent. Sorry.

Mea culpa. But you have to remember that I thought I was addressing JordanianPrincess and with a name like that, you can't fault me too much for presuming she or her SO of being of Arab descent.

Anyway, what I said applies to any foreigner, not just Arabs. If Prince Henry or Prince William of the UK immigrates to the US, they would not be able to become the Pres of the USA. And you can't be whiter than either of them

edit: also, note where this thread falls under:

VisaJourney.com > General Discussion Area > Regional Discussion > Middle East and North Africa

You can't fault me too much if its catagorized under this subcatagory.

Edited August 30, 2006 by SirLancelot

[Together4ever 1]

I am an American, born and raised. I have no "Arab" blood. I love the assumptions. Muslim does necessarily mean someone of Arabian descent. There are quite a few of us "white bread Muslims" out there. And yes I'm quite aware of a lot of BS. I'm not trying to be smug with you although I know I come acrossed that way. I agree with your words. Its just that quite frankly between this process and the level of idiocy in this country towards Muslims (not Arabs... MUSLIMS) I am quite fed up with humanity in general. Last I checked freedom of religion in this country was a right. It should have come with a disclaimer I guess.

Grrrr too late to edit and too early in the morning. I MEANT to say Being Muslim does NOT necessarily mean being of Arab descent. Sorry.

Mea culpa. But you have to remember that I thought I was addressing JordanianPrincess and with a name like that, you can't fault me too much for presuming she or her SO of being of Arab descent.

Anyway, what I said applies to any foreigner, not just Arabs. If Prince Henry or Prince William of the UK immigrates to the US, they would not be able to become the Pres of the USA. And you can't whiter than either of them

Yep. Again I was speaking generally. I know I'm not expressing myself clearly. I meant no disrespect to anything you said. Apologies.

[SirLancelot 1]

Yep. Again I was speaking generally. I know I'm not expressing myself clearly. I meant no disrespect to anything you said. Apologies.

No need. I understand and appreciate your sentiments and frustrations. I didn't take it as disrespect. I took it as frustrations. I just wanted to clarifly myself. It was the name JordanianPrincess which led me initially to my assumptions.

[Bosco 1]

This exemplifies why I don't usually say much in religious discussion. Because I am a "revert" I will always be the "retarded child", my views will never "count". I have been ridiculed and insulted in the past by a few members here. I try to be intelligent with my views and I try hard to be opened minded, but I'm weary of this.

If one chooses to revert to Islam, does this make their faith and their belief any LESS? I can assure I feel as strongly about my own relationship with Allah through Islam as any other muslim does. I cannot at this time study Islam in Arabic because I can't read Arabic. I plan to learn it so I can. I do not want to be patronized. I turn away from those who do it.

I will keep my thoughts to myself from here on out regarding anything to do with Islam since obviously my faith is considered inferior by those who post here because I was not "born" Muslim.

I do want to remind one thing, however. When one accepts Islam who is not biologically born into it, they are still considered clean and new. One's relationship with Allah is that. A relationship. Highly personal. In a relationship there is always growth and discovery. It can't be forced. It has to progress on its own. I'm not necessarily addressing this poster personally, but its the attitude of several others that makes me regret posting anything on this subject.

I just find it disappointing.

I would also add that many people born Muslim have only been exposed to one school of thought, and in many cases, the government controls what is taught in the masjids and the khutbah delivered in the mosques. I don't think szsz's knowledge necessarily came from being born Muslim - from what I know about her, it is knowledge she pursued primarily independently and within her family. Most (not all) people born in Muslim countries have been exposed to a very traditional, conservative form of Islam only unless they otherwise pursued other knowledge.

I also 100% disagree with the point that the only form the Qur'an should be in. With this logic, the Bible should have only remained in Aramaic. Arabic preserves the integrity of the Qur'an as with the Arabic originals, it can never be altered. It doesn't follow that it is the ONLY form that should exist. With the preserved Qur'an, one is able to go back and make sure the message is never altered. God made it clear it was a message for ALL people and I don't think that meant those people first had to gain a high level of fluency in a foreign language. Understanding the language also doesn't mean understanding the meaning. This sentiment that Arabic is the only form it should exist is assumes that the vast majority of the world's Muslims are somehow less knowledgable than the Arabic speaking ones.

[Nagishkaw 510]

Yep. Again I was speaking generally. I know I'm not expressing myself clearly. I meant no disrespect to anything you said. Apologies.

No need. I understand and appreciate your sentiments and frustrations. I didn't take it as disrespect. I took it as frustrations. I just wanted to clarifly myself. It was the name JordanianPrincess which led me initially to my assumptions.

[lostinlove228 0]

This exemplifies why I don't usually say much in religious discussion. Because I am a "revert" I will always be the "retarded child", my views will never "count". I have been ridiculed and insulted in the past by a few members here. I try to be intelligent with my views and I try hard to be opened minded, but I'm weary of this.

It's funny you say that. Actually people who revert seem to know more then people who are born Muslim. I was born Muslim, but didn't know much about it till I was is college. A revert is part of the reason of what got me interested in learning more. Shortly After is when I put on the Scarf. So I don't agree with you that a revert knowns any less. Also I have noticed that people who revert tend to follow Islam better then some people who are born Muslims. This is a choice that you made. It actually makes me feel pride when I see people like you.

Another comment from something earlier in the thread. There is no such thing as conversion my force.

[Ban Hammer 13,111]

isn't "convert" the term to use when someone who was never muslim become muslim?

revert implies they were muslim before becoming another religion, and then turned back to islam.

[lostinlove228 0]

fgd

Edited August 30, 2006 by lostinlove228

[jordanianprincess 0]

There are 2 women here, SZSZ and Lostinlove, whose posts I take the most seriously. Not only because they were born Muslim, but it is also a part of the history. Learning the Quran in English is not the same as learning it in Arabic, which is the only form it should be in.

The funny part about it, is when ever a question is asked about Islam, all the converts or reverts, jump to answer right away without looking at all view points and alot of the time those answers seem snippy and condecending. I have never felt that by looking at posts from SZSZ or Lostinlove. Actually if you look at the original post, you will notice the first handful of answers are all different. I was actually impressed and relieved when Lostinlove posted that she would research it and come back to answer.

This exemplifies why I don't usually say much in religious discussion. Because I am a "revert" I will always be the "retarded child", my views will never "count". I have been ridiculed and insulted in the past by a few members here. I try to be intelligent with my views and I try hard to be opened minded, but I'm weary of this.

If one chooses to revert to Islam, does this make their faith and their belief any LESS? I can assure I feel as strongly about my own relationship with Allah through Islam as any other muslim does. I cannot at this time study Islam in Arabic because I can't read Arabic. I plan to learn it so I can. I do not want to be patronized. I turn away from those who do it.

I will keep my thoughts to myself from here on out regarding anything to do with Islam since obviously my faith is considered inferior by those who post here because I was not "born" Muslim.

I do want to remind one thing, however. When one accepts Islam who is not biologically born into it, they are still considered clean and new. One's relationship with Allah is that. A relationship. Highly personal. In a relationship there is always growth and discovery. It can't be forced. It has to progress on its own. I'm not necessarily addressing this poster personally, but its the attitude of several others that makes me regret posting anything on this subject.

I just find it disappointing.

Jean is there a specific reason you take everything as a personal attack on yourself? These are my opinions and I am free to express them as I like. The same way you are free to constantly express yours. I find it funny that you say that you don't contribute much to religious discussion, as you are in pretty much every thread reagarding it. I didn't insult you or call you a "retarded child" or say that you were inferior. I don't take the posts made my SZSZ and Lostinlove seriously only becuase they are arabic, but to be quite honest their posts are well thought out and unbiased. The same is for Bosco, which even though she is not arabic, I still think her posts are great and I do enjoy reading them. I didn't say it made your belief in Islam less if you convert. You are shoving words down my mouth and I don't appreciate it.

I am still baffled by your actions. It seems anytime we have some kind of constructive debate, you come into the thread and play the part of the victim, storm off, and say your not going to say anything else. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we are flaming each other.

[Nagishkaw 510]

Some things are beter off not said when someone does not ' know' the other person.

Conquor yourself first, and other people will gladly let you lead them.

[Together4ever 1]

There are 2 women here, SZSZ and Lostinlove, whose posts I take the most seriously. Not only because they were born Muslim, but it is also a part of the history. Learning the Quran in English is not the same as learning it in Arabic, which is the only form it should be in.

The funny part about it, is when ever a question is asked about Islam, all the converts or reverts, jump to answer right away without looking at all view points and alot of the time those answers seem snippy and condecending. I have never felt that by looking at posts from SZSZ or Lostinlove. Actually if you look at the original post, you will notice the first handful of answers are all different. I was actually impressed and relieved when Lostinlove posted that she would research it and come back to answer.

This exemplifies why I don't usually say much in religious discussion. Because I am a "revert" I will always be the "retarded child", my views will never "count". I have been ridiculed and insulted in the past by a few members here. I try to be intelligent with my views and I try hard to be opened minded, but I'm weary of this.

If one chooses to revert to Islam, does this make their faith and their belief any LESS? I can assure I feel as strongly about my own relationship with Allah through Islam as any other muslim does. I cannot at this time study Islam in Arabic because I can't read Arabic. I plan to learn it so I can. I do not want to be patronized. I turn away from those who do it.

I will keep my thoughts to myself from here on out regarding anything to do with Islam since obviously my faith is considered inferior by those who post here because I was not "born" Muslim.

I do want to remind one thing, however. When one accepts Islam who is not biologically born into it, they are still considered clean and new. One's relationship with Allah is that. A relationship. Highly personal. In a relationship there is always growth and discovery. It can't be forced. It has to progress on its own. I'm not necessarily addressing this poster personally, but its the attitude of several others that makes me regret posting anything on this subject.

I just find it disappointing.

Jean is there a specific reason you take everything as a personal attack on yourself? These are my opinions and I am free to express them as I like. The same way you are free to constantly express yours. I find it funny that you say that you don't contribute much to religious discussion, as you are in pretty much every thread reagarding it. I didn't insult you or call you a "retarded child" or say that you were inferior. I don't take the posts made my SZSZ and Lostinlove seriously only becuase they are arabic, but to be quite honest their posts are well thought out and unbiased. The same is for Bosco, which even though she is not arabic, I still think her posts are great and I do enjoy reading them. I didn't say it made your belief in Islam less if you convert. You are shoving words down my mouth and I don't appreciate it.

I am still baffled by your actions. It seems anytime we have some kind of constructive debate, you come into the thread and play the part of the victim, storm off, and say your not going to say anything else. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean we are flaming each other.

You may take my words as an attack on you personally, but they weren't intended in that way. They triggered a personal frustration with this board that I've had since I joined. It wasn't directed at you personally. I was no shoving words down your throat.

As far as playing the part of the victim or storming off or supplying my opinions, its no different then you supplying yours. If you have a problem with me please feel free to exercise the ignore feature. I've already mentioned previously that I'm not quite myself these days and am frankly having a hard time. I didn't think that meant I had to leave the forum. This is the only support system I have. I am just who I am, and doing the best I can. Again, feel free to block me. I won't be offended.

And I will from now on keep my religious opinions to myself.

[hurriya 0]

With reference to the numerous charges, lawsuits, and accusations agains Catholic priests and one well known non-denominational pastor in Texas recently is anyone able to separate man from his messages and missions? I was taught years ago to not put my faith in any human, instead to remain steadfast in my practice/belief while is pursuit of His purpose/mission for me.

[ya falaha! 0]

Am I the only one who finds the speaking your mind trend on VJ refreshing? The nicey nicey...let's all blow sunshine up each other's asses thing gets old. As long as it's done in good taste I say...express yo self!

[iceyspots 0]

I am an American, born and raised. I have no "Arab" blood. I love the assumptions. Muslim does necessarily mean someone of Arabian descent. There are quite a few of us "white bread Muslims" out there. And yes I'm quite aware of a lot of BS. I'm not trying to be smug with you although I know I come acrossed that way. I agree with your words. Its just that quite frankly between this process and the level of idiocy in this country towards Muslims (not Arabs... MUSLIMS) I am quite fed up with humanity in general. Last I checked freedom of religion in this country was a right. It should have come with a disclaimer I guess.

Grrrr too late to edit and too early in the morning. I MEANT to say Being Muslim does NOT necessarily mean being of Arab descent. Sorry.

Don't forget that the top 4 or 5 countries with the highest muslim population aren't even arab countries.

isn't "convert" the term to use when someone who was never muslim become muslim?

revert implies they were muslim before becoming another religion, and then turned back to islam.

Muslims typically use the word revert because there is a belief that everyone is born muslim.. it is humans that teach people otherwise.

[Bosco 1]

And I will from now on keep my religious opinions to myself.

Please don't do that Jean. I always look forward to reading your opinions.

Rebecca