I have a question for you gals

[amal 4]

This may sound stupid but.....it's really great to see a real discussion with real questions rather than name calling and nasty things being said...

2nd... I was told that in the early early stages of Islam ppl were forced to convert but later on it changed to free will....

[Bosco 1]

I am going to respectfully offer up a suggestion. If you want "proof" and "answers" and want a pure source, open the quran and read it. I did this long before I chose to become Muslim. I had questions and I didn't trust "opinions". The more scholars' hands you drag the truth through, the more likely it is to become muddied. If you want the "real" answer, just read it and decide for yourself.

[sarah and hicham 3]

I am going to respectfully offer up a suggestion. If you want "proof" and "answers" and want a pure source, open the quran and read it. I did this long before I chose to become Muslim. I had questions and I didn't trust "opinions". The more scholars' hands you drag the truth through, the more likely it is to become muddied. If you want the "real" answer, just read it and decide for yourself.

I am interested to see what people here think or believe or have been taught.

I could have opened up the Quran a looong time ago but I am more interested in having a discussion about it for now!

So Jean what do you think?

ps. Marriage is not a holy union?

Another thing I have read is that the true meaning of the Quran cannot be read in English that in the translation from Arabic to English it just isn't the same thing. I also thought that it wasn't right to translate the Quran from Arabic? I have a friend from Pakistan who doesn't speak Arabic however she learned to read it for the sake of reading and learning the Quran.

Edited August 29, 2006 by sarah and hicham

[amal 4]

it does lose its meaning when it is translated into another language...just as any language loses its meaning when translated to another... That's one of the good things about the Qura'an.. It is in its original language and although ppl can get translated versions, they can refer back to the original.

[Together4ever 1]

As far as translating from Arabic to other languages, yes some meanings and wordings can become a bit "off". I discovered this while I was staying in Egypt. I was sitting with the quran and reading while Moh was picking around on his guitar and in his own little world. I read something that seemed startling wrong in the way it was worded. I asked him about it and he asked to see it. He was frowning. He took the quran and we sat with his mother and his uncle and they were shocked by the English translation. The English was worded in such a way to give an extreme and violent meaning. The reason I'm not repeating what that was here is because too much time has passed and I do not remember the exact meaning they conveyed to me and I don't want to state it wrong.

But in all fairness this can be said when translating any language. It's true of the Bible too. Some concepts just simply did not translate accurately.

I know many disagree with me on this, and frankly my heart is too bloody tired to care anymore, but these holy books, whichever you pick up and read, are meant to be read not just with cold logic, but read from that blissful place where the heart and the mind sit as one. That's where the real understanding comes from because that part of your soul which has never been apart from that which created it knows the Truth.

These writings are deep and extremely multi-dimensional. I don't think a human mind can even begin to absorb all that is there. But when the mind/heart is unfettered and "clean" the message is loud and clear no matter what language its written in. Hence the symbolic act of ablution before prayer and handling the quran.

Just my take. Shred away...

Oops... I forgot. It is my understanding that Islam certainly does consider marriage a holy union. I know on a personal level Mohammed and I consider it first and foremost a promise made to eachother before Allah and that is important to both of us.

[sarah and hicham 3]

As far as translating from Arabic to other languages, yes some meanings and wordings can become a bit "off". I discovered this while I was staying in Egypt. I was sitting with the quran and reading while Moh was picking around on his guitar and in his own little world. I read something that seemed startling wrong in the way it was worded. I asked him about it and he asked to see it. He was frowning. He took the quran and we sat with his mother and his uncle and they were shocked by the English translation. The English was worded in such a way to give an extreme and violent meaning. The reason I'm not repeating what that was here is because too much time has passed and I do not remember the exact meaning they conveyed to me and I don't want to state it wrong.

But in all fairness this can be said when translating any language. It's true of the Bible too. Some concepts just simply did not translate accurately.

I know many disagree with me on this, and frankly my heart is too bloody tired to care anymore, but these holy books, whichever you pick up and read, are meant to be read not just with cold logic, but read from that blissful place where the heart and the mind sit as one. That's where the real understanding comes from because that part of your soul which has never been apart from that which created it knows the Truth.

These writings are deep and extremely multi-dimensional. I don't think a human mind can even begin to absorb all that is there. But when the mind/heart is unfettered and "clean" the message is loud and clear no matter what language its written in. Hence the symbolic act of ablution before prayer and handling the quran.

Just my take. Shred away...

Jean no one is going to shred at you. I don't kow why you think that. I said what I have learned, many others said what they have learned, you said what you learned and no one is saying anything rude or trying to start a fight here at all. We're all sharing what we think. Nothing wrong with that.

That is what I am saying about the Quran from what I have heard is that the translation can be taken somewhat differently when translated into English.

So back to the original question! What do you guys think about Muhammed having more than 4 wives? I'm just wondering why it is justified when the Quran says no more than 4 wives.

Rahma said it was to keep political ties... what do you mean by that?

And why isn't religion a Holy union?

[dollface41601 0]

isn't it against islam to force people to convert??

this always boggled my mind...why is it illegal to force people to convert. but when a muslim wants to convert, they get killed for it?

[Henia 11]

When he was 25 years old, the Prophet Muhammad (saw) married the 40 years old Khadidjah, who was one of the richest women in Mecca. He had undertaken trading missions on her behalf before the marriage. This marriage produced two sons, who died in early childhood, and four daughters who survived the Pr.Muhammad(saw).

Following Khadidjah's death, Pr. Muhammad (saw) married Sawdah the widow of one of the early converts to Islam. He married 'A'ishah, the daughter of his closest companion Abu Bakr, when she was 10 - 11 years old without divorcing his wife Sawdah. This was difficult for non-Muslim authors to accept - particularly those from a religious background that considers sex sinful and contrary to spirituality.

Polygamy had been practiced in Arabia for centuries to solve the problem of what to do when tribal wars reduce the number of available men and produce more widows with children who need support. Polygamy saved widows and their children from the need to earn a living as a servant, beggar or prostitute. Islam limited polygamy to 4 wives and required equal treatment in everything.

Pr.Muhammad (saw)set precedents to guide Muslims along this difficult path. He was married to one woman during the prime of his life from age 25 until her death when he was 53 years old. This counters the argument that he was a womanizer.

When Islam started spreading throughout Arabia, Marriage to the Prophet became an honor most women would have been delighted to accept. However, Pr.Muhammad(saw) didn't marry for pleasure as shown by his selections from available women.

His marriage to the very young 'A'ishah was not a frivolous act. She was the only wife alive when the need to record the details of the Prophet's personal life and practices for posterity became urgent.

Pr.Muhammad(saw) also married Hafsah, the daughter of his close companion Omar. She was a 40 years old widow who didn't find a suitable husband. He married Zeinab, the widow of a Muslim who died in battle defending the young Muslim Nation. She was kind and charitable which earned her the nickname: "mother of the weak". She was not young and died within 2 years of her marriage to the Prophet.

Pr.Muhammad(saw) married Umm Salamah, the old widow of a Muslim who died in battle leaving many children to support. He also married a Christian, Maria and a Jew, Safiah. He married Ramlah the daughter of Abu Sufian, who led the Arabs against Pr.Muhammad(saw) and Islam. Ramlah and her husband had converted to Islam and immigrated to Ethiopia to escape persecution in Mecca. Her husband converted to Christianity and left her.

He married his cousin Zeinab following her divorce from his adopted son Zaid who used to be his servant. Pr.Muhammad(saw) had asked for her hand for Zaid and persisted until she accepted. She mistreated Zaid because of her high social status until he divorced her. This made her unfit to marry a status conscious Arab. Her subsequent marriage to the Prophet shattered the Arabs' concepts of status and marriage.

Pr.Muhammad(saw)'s wives played an important role in advising Muslim women on religious issues. Women have special requirements during periods of menstruation, late stages of pregnancy and child birth. This affected how women purified their bodies and clothing before prayer and how they coped with fasting from dawn to sunset during the month of Ramadan.

Muslims will tell you a Muslim man can have up to four wives at a time, based on Sura 4:3.Polgamy that every marriage was for humanitarian or alliance purposes. ‘Aisha and some wives were daughters of powerful chiefs Pr.Muhammed(saw) need the support of. Others such widows, "taken care of" by Pr.Muhammed(saw) after their previous husband died.

Here is a list of wives of Pr.Muhammed(saw) by the Muslim scholar Ali Dashti. He probably based much of this on an earlief list in the History of al-Tabari vol.9 p.126-241. It should be mentioned that scholars and Hadiths are not entirely agreed on the wives of Pr.Muhammed(saw). For example some hadiths (not Bukhari or Sahih Muslim) mention a couple of wives of Pr.Muhammed(saw) that he divorced, and these are not shown here. Nonetheless, Ali Dashti’s list, while perhaps not entirely agreed upon as being comprehensive, shows many of the wives. Following this is the evidence from the hadiths, independent of Ali Dashti, for these relationships.

1. Khadija/Khadijah bint Khuwailid/Khywaylid - died first

2. Sawda/Sauda bint Zam’a

3. 'Aisha/Aesha/’A’ishah

4. Omm/’Umm Salama/Salamah

5. Hafsa/Hafsah

6. Zaynab/Zainab of Jahsh

7. Jowayriya/Juwairiyya bint Harith

8. Omm Habiba

9. Safiya/Safiyya bint Huyai/Huyayy bint Akhtab

10. Maymuna/Maimuna of Hareth

11. Fatima/Fatema/Fatimah

12. Hend/Hind

13. Asma of Saba

14. Zaynab of Khozayma

15. Habla?The information on this marriage is unclear.

16. Asma of Noman / bint al-Nu’man

Pr.Muhammed(saw) married 15 women and consummated his marriages with 13. (al-Tabari vol.9 p.126-127)

Bukhari vol.1 Book 5 ch.25 no.282 p.172-173 said that [at one time] Pr. Muhammed(saw) had nine wives.

Hopefully that cleared up your question. Allah knows best.

[Together4ever 1]

As far as translating from Arabic to other languages, yes some meanings and wordings can become a bit "off". I discovered this while I was staying in Egypt. I was sitting with the quran and reading while Moh was picking around on his guitar and in his own little world. I read something that seemed startling wrong in the way it was worded. I asked him about it and he asked to see it. He was frowning. He took the quran and we sat with his mother and his uncle and they were shocked by the English translation. The English was worded in such a way to give an extreme and violent meaning. The reason I'm not repeating what that was here is because too much time has passed and I do not remember the exact meaning they conveyed to me and I don't want to state it wrong.

But in all fairness this can be said when translating any language. It's true of the Bible too. Some concepts just simply did not translate accurately.

I know many disagree with me on this, and frankly my heart is too bloody tired to care anymore, but these holy books, whichever you pick up and read, are meant to be read not just with cold logic, but read from that blissful place where the heart and the mind sit as one. That's where the real understanding comes from because that part of your soul which has never been apart from that which created it knows the Truth.

These writings are deep and extremely multi-dimensional. I don't think a human mind can even begin to absorb all that is there. But when the mind/heart is unfettered and "clean" the message is loud and clear no matter what language its written in. Hence the symbolic act of ablution before prayer and handling the quran.

Just my take. Shred away...

Jean no one is going to shred at you. I don't kow why you think that. I said what I have learned, many others said what they have learned, you said what you learned and no one is saying anything rude or trying to start a fight here at all. We're all sharing what we think. Nothing wrong with that.

That is what I am saying about the Quran from what I have heard is that the translation can be taken somewhat differently when translated into English.

So back to the original question! What do you guys think about Muhammed having more than 4 wives? I'm just wondering why it is justified when the Quran says no more than 4 wives.

Rahma said it was to keep political ties... what do you mean by that?

And why isn't religion a Holy union?

I've had displeasure expressed (even insultingly so by a fellow board member) in the past about my own views of Islam. I'm just preparing for the worst.

As others have said, regarding the prophet Muhammed having more then 4 wives, the doctrine regarding this stipulation was not handed down to him until much later in his life. When I questioned my Mohammed about this, his answer was bear bones simple and I'll just repeat it here. To help spread Islam. More wives meant more children, hence the beginning of the spread of the family of Islam. I am no expert as I am often reminded, but I do feel Sarah that several people have answered this already to the best of their ability and far better then I can.

Islam is a way of life and it touches all things, including politics. Kind of hard to avoid it.

[Henia 11]

I learned in a history class I took that many Christian families were forced to convert to Islam in ancient times which is why even today there are many Arab families in the Middle East who have Christian last names but who are Muslim.

Well in the time of the breakdown of Andulus when the Catholic took over the region many Muslims and Jewish converted (dare I say forced to convert) in order to not be imprisioned by the Spanish Inquisition... so I am thinking this could be along the the lines of why people "convert" to a religion in certain areas of the world.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Rahma said it was to keep political ties... what do you mean by that?

Marriage serves many purposes in Islam. While it primarily is about a loving partnership between two individuals, it can also serve political purposes, strengthening alliances between tribes or nations. One thing that I am struck by in my reading of seerah (early biographies of the Prophet), and scholar's commentaries on the life of the Prophet (saws) is the many facets the Prophet's marriages took. He was certainly loving towards his wives. He also looked to them for advice on many issues in running the community, business and life in general.

And, I said that the primary reason was that God gave the Prophet (saws) a dispensation and revealed quranic verses that stated he could keep all of his wives. I then deduced based on my studies and on logic some reasons for this dispensation. One reason is political. Another is that the wives of the Prophet (saws) are the Mothers of the Believers, and as such, could not marry again if they had been divorced. Also, each wife contributed something special and unique to the Prophet's mission, and were vital to his sucess. What I have learned can be found in numerous places, including the link I gave you earlier. It seems silly to me for me to paraphrase it when it's all right there. My opinions on this matter are based in part on the information given there.

For the historical questions, my opinions are based on classical sources and A History of Islamic Societies: Books by Ira M. Lapidus, which was the text for one of my history classes on Islam. Most opinions here on this board should be based at least on some level on texts and sources. Why muck about with the opinions when you could go straight to the source? The history text is a good reference. If you want to know about a particular period of time, just flip to the chapter on it, and you'll get a pretty good idea about things.

As for where I get my knowledge, I get it primarily from the same place muslims have been getting knowledge since the death of the Prophet (saws). I read books and listen to lectures from scholars who have been given authority to teach in the main madhabs (schools) of sunni thought. The lectures are mainly on CDs. I am particularly fond of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf of the Zaytuna Insitutue in California, and Dr. Umar Abdullah of the Nawawi Foundation in Illinois. I also take classes online at Sunnipath, and attend classes at the local masjid given by a sister who has a masters degree in Fiqh/Islamic Studies from al Quds University in Palestine.

In addition to my traditional learning, I majored in poli sci and religious studies in college with a strong emphasis on political islam. This course of study lead me to take several classes which approached islam from a secular, political and historical perspective.

Also, just to add -

One of the things that drew me to Islam is the idea that God handed down a perfect revelation to man and that the Prophet (saws) showed us the perfect way to practice this religion. As such, there aren't really any of "in my personal opinion" in Islam. There certainly is "my opinion on this issue is this, and it is based on this source, which relates back to this section of the Quran and this action of the Prophet."

Edited August 30, 2006 by rahma

[Bosco 1]

Another thing I have read is that the true meaning of the Quran cannot be read in English that in the translation from Arabic to English it just isn't the same thing. I also thought that it wasn't right to translate the Quran from Arabic? I have a friend from Pakistan who doesn't speak Arabic however she learned to read it for the sake of reading and learning the Quran.

I read a book that discussed this. The author brought up that in linguistics, there is a fundamental principal that says anything expressed in one language can be expressed in another. It may not be done as a word-for-word translation, but that the meaning can be expressed. So the question is whether or not such a translation exists.

Being the the majority of the world's Muslims are not fluent in Arabic, I personally believe yes, the meaning of the Qur'an is able to transcend language. Jean touched upon some things. The Qur'an itself reads as a very consistent message and I think if you are really reading it, you will pick up if something doesn't sound right and can therefore seek another translation or ask a native Arabic speaker to explain it as they see it. Anyone reading the Qur'an is reading it through their experience/their interpretation. A translation has already been "read" so when reading it yourself, you have to keep this in mind.

[sarah and hicham 3]

As far as translating from Arabic to other languages, yes some meanings and wordings can become a bit "off". I discovered this while I was staying in Egypt. I was sitting with the quran and reading while Moh was picking around on his guitar and in his own little world. I read something that seemed startling wrong in the way it was worded. I asked him about it and he asked to see it. He was frowning. He took the quran and we sat with his mother and his uncle and they were shocked by the English translation. The English was worded in such a way to give an extreme and violent meaning. The reason I'm not repeating what that was here is because too much time has passed and I do not remember the exact meaning they conveyed to me and I don't want to state it wrong.

But in all fairness this can be said when translating any language. It's true of the Bible too. Some concepts just simply did not translate accurately.

I know many disagree with me on this, and frankly my heart is too bloody tired to care anymore, but these holy books, whichever you pick up and read, are meant to be read not just with cold logic, but read from that blissful place where the heart and the mind sit as one. That's where the real understanding comes from because that part of your soul which has never been apart from that which created it knows the Truth.

These writings are deep and extremely multi-dimensional. I don't think a human mind can even begin to absorb all that is there. But when the mind/heart is unfettered and "clean" the message is loud and clear no matter what language its written in. Hence the symbolic act of ablution before prayer and handling the quran.

Just my take. Shred away...

Jean no one is going to shred at you. I don't kow why you think that. I said what I have learned, many others said what they have learned, you said what you learned and no one is saying anything rude or trying to start a fight here at all. We're all sharing what we think. Nothing wrong with that.

That is what I am saying about the Quran from what I have heard is that the translation can be taken somewhat differently when translated into English.

So back to the original question! What do you guys think about Muhammed having more than 4 wives? I'm just wondering why it is justified when the Quran says no more than 4 wives.

Rahma said it was to keep political ties... what do you mean by that?

And why isn't religion a Holy union?

I've had displeasure expressed (even insultingly so by a fellow board member) in the past about my own views of Islam. I'm just preparing for the worst.

As others have said, regarding the prophet Muhammed having more then 4 wives, the doctrine regarding this stipulation was not handed down to him until much later in his life. When I questioned my Mohammed about this, his answer was bear bones simple and I'll just repeat it here. To help spread Islam. More wives meant more children, hence the beginning of the spread of the family of Islam. I am no expert as I am often reminded, but I do feel Sarah that several people have answered this already to the best of their ability and far better then I can.

Islam is a way of life and it touches all things, including politics. Kind of hard to avoid it.

I don't want you to take things too personally. I was just asking what you think.

So now I have heard that religion is and is not a holy union...

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Also, sorry for the kinda formal tone of my post. I am in the midst of typing up opinion and demand letters for my legal writing class, so I'm definately in the legal mode in terms of typing It's hard to switch off!

[Henia 11]

isn't it against islam to force people to convert??

this always boggled my mind...why is it illegal to force people to convert. but when a muslim wants to convert, they get killed for it?

Dollface Islam condemns this, but as Islam is said to be prefect, Muslims are not...and most of this is cultural and unfortunely many ppl have selective memory when it comes to suras they like and donnot...