Abuse of power in the American Consulate

[Crossed_fingers 128]

I don't know about the stats, but my guess is that the later visas wouldn't be denied. If the original beneficiary is now a citizen, then he obviously hadn't been deported for fraud, and that second relationship is probably genuine......

[MrsAmera 41]

I have a circle of about 10 couples - 8 are moroccan/moroccan 2 are moroccan/american. All 8 of the moroccan/moroccan couples - the man originally married an American woman, divorced and married a Moroccan later. 2 were legitimate marriages that didn't work out (one was over 10yrs together)- the others were fruad. These are good people, def wouldn't expect them to have doen that - just goes to show you never know.

[Crossed_fingers 128]

I have a circle of about 10 couples - 8 are moroccan/moroccan 2 are moroccan/american. All 8 of the moroccan/moroccan couples - the man originally married an American woman, divorced and married a Moroccan later. 2 were legitimate marriages that didn't work out (one was over 10yrs together)- the others were fruad. These are good people, def wouldn't expect them to have doen that - just goes to show you never know.

I think I've posted about this before, but it goes with what you're saying, so here's what I've observed in "real life"...

I knew an American Muslim girl who studied abroad for a semester in Morocco. She came home and found a group of other American Muslim women that was officially a group for discussing and exchanging information on Morocco. Trading recipes, practicing darija, stuff like that. When she went, she discovered that ALL of the other women in the group had been married to and then divorced by Moroccan husbands. There were 30 of them. I don't know how many of the 30 couples were fraud and how many were legitimate couples who just didn't work out, but not one of those marriages lasted. The group had started when most were still married and I think quite a few of the women had children with the men first.

Later, I met one of the other women who was in the group. She never offered to talk to me about her own divorce, although she had lived in Morocco for many years with her husband and I find it unlikely that her relationship ended because of fraud. However, they met when she was living in Morocco, they married when she was around 20 years old, a virgin, already Muslim, and already fluent in darija. She was of the opinion that any and every Moroccan man who intentionally sought out a Western woman was a scammer, whether he sought the woman online or in person where she stood out as a foreigner. She relayed tons of stories and red flags to me as a warning before I went to Morocco. I have to say, while my SO didn't overlap much with the profile she said was typical, I do see what she described as the classic fraud profile online all the time. From what she had seen, it didn't end well.

She in turn introduced me to yet another American woman who lived in Morocco with her Moroccan husband of 15+ years. That woman described herself as being stuck in a terrible marriage full of cultural differences, because she had kids and because she had no life to return to in the U.S. She had converted to Islam and basically had an arranged marriage to her husband when she was a teenager and a virgin and lived in Morocco ever since. She said over the years she'd met "countless" American women who married Moroccan men who moved to the U.S. and divorced immediately. She also described the rampant fraud she saw everyday in Casablanca and suggested that even if you think you know about marriage fraud, you never REALLY know until you see the couples waiting outside or at the cafe across from the consulate.

I know this is a doom and gloom post, and I actually took longer to write this than probably any other post I've made on VJ because I'm editing out a lot of the details and the particular stories and comments these women made about the relationships they've seen. I know a lot of readers seem to be pretty sensitive or defensive when the topic of fraud and divorce out of Morocco comes up. In full disclosure, even though the 2nd woman I described was surprised that my SO didn't have a lot of the obvious warning signs of fraud, she still was of the belief that it was basically impossible that he had contacted me online with good intentions. Obviously we disagree on that point. I'm just pointing this out because it seems to be the conclusion of some people on VJ that most Moroccan-American immigration marriages are genuine, or at least somehow we're all the exception and fraud just happens to other people. On the other hand, it seems to me that everyone with years of experience with those mixed marriages would argue strongly to the contrary.

I think listening to people like these women and MrsAmera can shed some light on how the CO's think. If anything, my acquaintances wouldn't give out anywhere near the number of visas than the consulate does because they have seen ALMOST ALL of the visa beneficiaries end up divorcing. MrsAmera's circle of friends suggests the same. We've seen plenty of posts about fraud on VJ, and those are stories about men who made it through Casablanca. I have sympathy for the women whose loved ones are denied; I'm facing the same consulate myself.......but I have to say, with all the fraud out there that isn't discovered until after the men have their papers, I think it's a lot easier to argue objectively that the consulate is too lenient, not too tough.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Crossed_fingers

[msheesha 548]

It'd be interesting to know if there were common characteristics in these scenarios but it seems like they were pretty varied scenarios - other than Moroccan man and American woman.

Were there any other similar characteristics of the relationships?

[Crossed_fingers 128]

I'm interested in hearing whether MrsAmera saw any common characteristics in her circle of friend.

I never attended any meetings of the group I discussed, I only heard about it from the 2 members. The warnings I got from the two women focused on the usual things you hear about in conversations about the consulate's list of red flags. A woman who isn't younger or at the very most 1-2 years older. Virginity being extremely important, and a divorced woman would obviously not qualify in that regard. Not wanting to raise another man's kids. The man being poor, uneducated, not fluent in English, and/or without job prospects. Certain areas of the country seemed more prone to fraud than others, and generally they thought the rural men were more likely to want an American woman only for papers than city men. The woman not being a born and raised or at least long-term Muslim (both in the sense that the men would only want a "truly" Muslim wife "for real" and also in the sense that a new convert wouldn't know her rights granted by the religion). General lack of knowledge of the culture of Morocco on the part of the woman. Disabled women. Severe appearance disparities.

Really the bottom line was that they warned me about the same stuff we already know, except it wasn't in the context of, "You have X Y and Z red flags, so make sure you document your relationship carefully to get through the consulate on the first interview, and if you get denied then just hunker down and try again and you'll likely make it through on round two." It was more like, "No, really, Moroccan men don't marry these women unless they want papers. Period. Maybe a very rare, tiny minority of them will end up staying, but by and large it's a business transaction and they have no intention of staying." I guess I'd just emphasize that they felt very strongly that there wasn't even much of a social stigma against using a woman this way. This might connect to what MrsAmera observed about her friends generally being good guys even though they did this thing that from our perspective is pretty terrible. Besides stressing that the "usual" immigration red flags were REAL-HE-IS-99%-PLANNING-ON-DIVORCING-YOU-NO-MATTER-HOW-WARM-HE-AND-HIS-FAMILY-ARE red flags, they also stressed that the mere fact that the woman was American and the man was Moroccan and pursuing her in a direct way like online or approaching her on the street in person made it HIGHLY likely that his intentions weren't good. They felt VERY strongly that any "serious" Moroccan man wouldn't be online or on the street trolling for a woman, and would instead arrange for a meeting with an appropriate (young, attractive, pious, etc.) woman through respectful channels, like having his relatives talk to her and her relatives on his behalf.

[KittyPollitt 284]

I'm interested in hearing whether MrsAmera saw any common characteristics in her circle of friend.

I never attended any meetings of the group I discussed, I only heard about it from the 2 members. The warnings I got from the two women focused on the usual things you hear about in conversations about the consulate's list of red flags. A woman who isn't younger or at the very most 1-2 years older. Virginity being extremely important, and a divorced woman would obviously not qualify in that regard. Not wanting to raise another man's kids. The man being poor, uneducated, not fluent in English, and/or without job prospects. Certain areas of the country seemed more prone to fraud than others, and generally they thought the rural men were more likely to want an American woman only for papers than city men. The woman not being a born and raised or at least long-term Muslim (both in the sense that the men would only want a "truly" Muslim wife "for real" and also in the sense that a new convert wouldn't know her rights granted by the religion). General lack of knowledge of the culture of Morocco on the part of the woman. Disabled women. Severe appearance disparities.

Really the bottom line was that they warned me about the same stuff we already know, except it wasn't in the context of, "You have X Y and Z red flags, so make sure you document your relationship carefully to get through the consulate on the first interview, and if you get denied then just hunker down and try again and you'll likely make it through on round two." It was more like, "No, really, Moroccan men don't marry these women unless they want papers. Period. Maybe a very rare, tiny minority of them will end up staying, but by and large it's a business transaction and they have no intention of staying." I guess I'd just emphasize that they felt very strongly that there wasn't even much of a social stigma against using a woman this way. This might connect to what MrsAmera observed about her friends generally being good guys even though they did this thing that from our perspective is pretty terrible. Besides stressing that the "usual" immigration red flags were REAL-HE-IS-99%-PLANNING-ON-DIVORCING-YOU-NO-MATTER-HOW-WARM-HE-AND-HIS-FAMILY-ARE red flags, they also stressed that the mere fact that the woman was American and the man was Moroccan and pursuing her in a direct way like online or approaching her on the street in person made it HIGHLY likely that his intentions weren't good. They felt VERY strongly that any "serious" Moroccan man wouldn't be online or on the street trolling for a woman, and would instead arrange for a meeting with an appropriate (young, attractive, pious, etc.) woman through respectful channels, like having his relatives talk to her and her relatives on his behalf.

Makes me feel a little better about my husband's family being a bunch of materialistic, back stabbing ingrates.

But seriously, I have so many friends on Facebook that are under 30 Moroccan men. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths they will go to in order to try to seduce me online. Even when they know I'm married. They've even gone and added my single cousins, in attempts to try to fish them. The moment they know you're from America, they're all over you. I've made a hobby of messing with them, usually ending in a slew of select terminology in darija.

[sussemadel 16]

Makes me feel a little better about my husband's family being a bunch of materialistic, back stabbing ingrates.

But seriously, I have so many friends on Facebook that are under 30 Moroccan men. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths they will go to in order to try to seduce me online. Even when they know I'm married. They've even gone and added my single cousins, in attempts to try to fish them. The moment they know you're from America, they're all over you. I've made a hobby of messing with them, usually ending in a slew of select terminology in darija.

When I went to visit my husband in Dubai, I made the mistake of taking a walk to one of the major shoppings streets. I had at least 6 or 7 proposals from Morrocan and Egyptian men that day. First question when they approach you is "Are you American?" Didn't matter to them that I'm in my 40's and all of them looked to be in their early to mid 20's. When I told my husband, his only response was "Every Arab knows about Egyptians and Morrocans"

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I'm interested in hearing whether MrsAmera saw any common characteristics in her circle of friend.

I never attended any meetings of the group I discussed, I only heard about it from the 2 members. The warnings I got from the two women focused on the usual things you hear about in conversations about the consulate's list of red flags. A woman who isn't younger or at the very most 1-2 years older. Virginity being extremely important, and a divorced woman would obviously not qualify in that regard. Not wanting to raise another man's kids. The man being poor, uneducated, not fluent in English, and/or without job prospects. Certain areas of the country seemed more prone to fraud than others, and generally they thought the rural men were more likely to want an American woman only for papers than city men. The woman not being a born and raised or at least long-term Muslim (both in the sense that the men would only want a "truly" Muslim wife "for real" and also in the sense that a new convert wouldn't know her rights granted by the religion). General lack of knowledge of the culture of Morocco on the part of the woman. Disabled women. Severe appearance disparities.

Really the bottom line was that they warned me about the same stuff we already know, except it wasn't in the context of, "You have X Y and Z red flags, so make sure you document your relationship carefully to get through the consulate on the first interview, and if you get denied then just hunker down and try again and you'll likely make it through on round two." It was more like, "No, really, Moroccan men don't marry these women unless they want papers. Period. Maybe a very rare, tiny minority of them will end up staying, but by and large it's a business transaction and they have no intention of staying." I guess I'd just emphasize that they felt very strongly that there wasn't even much of a social stigma against using a woman this way. This might connect to what MrsAmera observed about her friends generally being good guys even though they did this thing that from our perspective is pretty terrible. Besides stressing that the "usual" immigration red flags were REAL-HE-IS-99%-PLANNING-ON-DIVORCING-YOU-NO-MATTER-HOW-WARM-HE-AND-HIS-FAMILY-ARE red flags, they also stressed that the mere fact that the woman was American and the man was Moroccan and pursuing her in a direct way like online or approaching her on the street in person made it HIGHLY likely that his intentions weren't good. They felt VERY strongly that any "serious" Moroccan man wouldn't be online or on the street trolling for a woman, and would instead arrange for a meeting with an appropriate (young, attractive, pious, etc.) woman through respectful channels, like having his relatives talk to her and her relatives on his behalf.

I think marriage fraud against Americans is like a huge elephant in the room. When I was single and knew Moroccans because my daughter is a Moroccan and I talked about marrying an Algerian, every single Moroccan friend male and female warned me against it. They said he will use you and throw you. He wont stick with you, etc etc. And me.. Oh he is different. I have met his family, they were so warm to me etc etc. The biggest forewarners against marriage with someone from MENA have been people from MENA themselves. My American family actually gave him the benefit of the doubt. Looking back, I could have done so many things to avoid the mess I ended up in. I can honestly say that he not only ruined my life, he ruined my mothers life, her health and my kids life as well. I could cry you a river of all the things that happened to me. All I can tell you is once he got what he wanted he talked about how I was not what he ever wanted, my divorces, how he couldnt wait to get a halal wife, etc etc, how his mother told him , dont worry you will be done with her soon, etc etc

The only revenge I ever manage to get, and yes I sometimes like to extract it, is when I take my Moroccan daughter out with me. I often meet Moroccans around town and they comment on her name when I call her by her name. They say IS HER DAD MOROCCAN? I say yes, he used an American in New York for a greencard and abandoned her and she and I are friends and then he abandoned his daughter but now is being forced by the court to pay child support. They usually just look down or say they are sorry. To be honest with you, most American women I know around here used for papers wont tell anyone. Its too embarassing. Honestly also, most Moroccans or Arabs around town wont admit to Americans that they are even arab to begin with because of the awful reputation the guys have of using women for papers etc. We have a mess around here because of Disney's Epcot and Moroccans have been coming here 2 times a year since 1982 and marrying the first disney employee, old woman or college student they can con to fix their papers.

I honestly do not know a single Morocan in Orlando still married to the woman that gave him papers. I have met hundreds. I do know some US citizen moroccans who married Americans after the fact so maybe they like Americans but the odds look pretty crappy honestly. It doesnt mean the marriages they make with Moroccans wil work out but alot of Morocans feel that they have not completed their deen until they get a bent bledi and find their kids with her.

I am the mother of a Moroccan and there are really not statistically alot of American women with Moroccan children anyway. Most of the guys that I knew did everything they could to NOT have kids with Americans including one guy who forced his American wife to abort. You dont want anything hanging around when you are done with someone.

My daughters existance in itself is embarrasing to alot of the guys I meet. They feel sad about it but I told them honestly, I am not shocked. I guess we are good enough for papers and money but not good enough to breed with or stay with.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I think marriage fraud against Americans is like a huge elephant in the room. When I was single and knew Moroccans because my daughter is a Moroccan and I talked about marrying an Algerian, every single Moroccan friend male and female warned me against it. They said he will use you and throw you. He wont stick with you, etc etc. And me.. Oh he is different. I have met his family, they were so warm to me etc etc. The biggest forewarners against marriage with someone from MENA have been people from MENA themselves. My American family actually gave him the benefit of the doubt. Looking back, I could have done so many things to avoid the mess I ended up in. I can honestly say that he not only ruined my life, he ruined my mothers life, her health and my kids life as well. I could cry you a river of all the things that happened to me. All I can tell you is once he got what he wanted he talked about how I was not what he ever wanted, my divorces, how he couldnt wait to get a halal wife, etc etc, how his mother told him , dont worry you will be done with her soon, etc etc

The only revenge I ever manage to get, and yes I sometimes like to extract it, is when I take my Moroccan daughter out with me. I often meet Moroccans around town and they comment on her name when I call her by her name. They say IS HER DAD MOROCCAN? I say yes, he used an American in New York for a greencard and abandoned her and she and I are friends and then he abandoned his daughter but now is being forced by the court to pay child support. They usually just look down or say they are sorry. To be honest with you, most American women I know around here used for papers wont tell anyone. Its too embarassing. Honestly also, most Moroccans or Arabs around town wont admit to Americans that they are even arab to begin with because of the awful reputation the guys have of using women for papers etc. We have a mess around here because of Disney's Epcot and Moroccans have been coming here 2 times a year since 1982 and marrying the first disney employee, old woman or college student they can con to fix their papers.

I honestly do not know a single Morocan in Orlando still married to the woman that gave him papers. I have met hundreds. I do know some US citizen moroccans who married Americans after the fact so maybe they like Americans but the odds look pretty crappy honestly. It doesnt mean the marriages they make with Moroccans wil work out but alot of Morocans feel that they have not completed their deen until they get a bent bledi and find their kids with her.

I am the mother of a Moroccan and there are really not statistically alot of American women with Moroccan children anyway. Most of the guys that I knew did everything they could to NOT have kids with Americans including one guy who forced his American wife to abort. You dont want anything hanging around when you are done with someone.

My daughters existance in itself is embarrasing to alot of the guys I meet. They feel sad about it but I told them honestly, I am not shocked. I guess we are good enough for papers and money but not good enough to breed with or stay with.

Another uncomfortable reality is looks and attractiveness. I have seen guys leave the older American wife after getting papers and hook up with a hot young russian or hispanic,not arab or Moroccan. I think looks matter alot in the choice of who to be with after. I dont think its always that they dislike the American so much. They might have even grown fond of her in a motherly sort of way but what they were willing to put up with unpapered versus what they want when they have citizenship are very different things. Often they feel like they have outgrown haggard and fat or older and want an upgraded little hottie to show off to other Moroccans and the 15 year older wife is just not cutting it. I dont think its just religion or love of country. I think its like upgrading a car for some of them

[MrsAmera 41]

I've been trying to think of common characteristics between them - and perhaps 8-10 years ago when they came there might have been some but now I think that those initial characteristics are no longer there. Know what I mean? Biggest thing - they wanted out of Morocco? Not a single one talks about the first wife or any of the circumstances around it. I really hate to say that they are all after the green card because I really think that somewhere part of it does come down to plain old relationship fail. It's really hard to be married. It's even harder to be married to someone whose complete value system and concept of marriage is different from your own. I think that many women get tired of the disagreements as do many men. Unless you (and your partner) are willing to really work very very very hard at this it will fail.

Getting the visa is truly easy in comparison to making a life together. Whether or not the benificiary has ulterior motives there will be millions of struggles (save for a very select few number of cases). I know if the CO would have denied my husband and I - I would have had serious thoughts about our relationship and the reasons for the denial and not just chalked it up to a mean CO.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I also belonged to several groups years ago for American women married to Arab Muslim men. The thing that struck me with them, as with many of the women who have come thru there is the naivety and their clinginess. The need to be what the man wanted to the point of giving up themselves to try to be a good Arab wife, and never being good enough. They would suspend their humanity to accommodate immorality and the degradation of women in order to meet some far-fetched cultural code. Nothing could be said to many of them to make them think straight when it came to their men.

One group came to an end after one of it's overbearing leaders, a woman named Linda, married to a Jordanian, insisted that everyone accept her efforts to help an American Christian woman named Debbie become the second wife of a Jordanian Muslim man she had met online. His Muslim first wife was battling against his plan, and it was very clear that not only was he using her, but that he was entirely wiling to sacrifice his family for a woman he barely knew. Anyone who spoke out against the rest of us having to accept this as normal were dismissed as ignorant. After my cousin posted that the American woman was a ####### and that none of us should have to accept this, she was summarily removed from the board, leading to a defection of others that also had no interest in supporting Linda and Debbie.

Over the decades, I've seen more dysfunctional behavior among American women involved with Arab men than I care to recall. I'm not sure what it is about this involvement that makes women put up with what they wouldn't put up with for an American man, but it is what it is. Warnings failed there, and they've failed here. Lord knows, I've delivered many of them myself.

God bless the consulate. Without their willingness to boldly question, it could be a lot worse for a lot more women.

[Staashi 371]

[quote name='Hanging in there' I dont think its just religion or love of country. I think its like upgrading a car for some of them

LOL...It's like they're saying, "Yeah, I married a Nash Rambler. Hung on to her a few years and traded her in for an Infiniti. That's just how I roll."

[Staashi 371]

I also belonged to several groups years ago for American women married to Arab Muslim men. The thing that struck me with them, as with many of the women who have come thru there is the naivety and their clinginess. The need to be whaIt the man wanted to the point of giving up themselves to try to be a good Arab wife, and never being good enough. They would suspend their humanity to accommodate immorality and the degradation of women in order to meet some far-fetched cultural code. Nothing could be said to many of them to make them think straight when it came to their men.

One group came to an end after one of it's overbearing leaders, a woman named Linda, married to a Jordanian, insisted that everyone accept her efforts to help an American Christian woman named Debbie become the second wife of a Jordanian Muslim man she had met online. His Muslim first wife was battling against his plan, and it was very clear that not only was he using her, but that he was entirely wiling to sacrifice his family for a woman he barely knew. Anyone who spoke out against the rest of us having to accept this as normal were dismissed as ignorant. After my cousin posted that the American woman was a ####### and that none of us should have to accept this, she was summarily removed from the board, leading to a defection of others that also had no interest in supporting Linda and Debbie.

Over the decades, I've seen more dysfunctional behavior among American women involved with Arab men than I care to recall. I'm not sure what it is about this involvement that makes women put up with what they wouldn't put up with for an American man, but it is what it is. Warnings failed there, and they've failed here. Lord knows, I've delivered many of them myself.

God bless the consulate. Without their willingness to boldly question, it could be a lot worse for a lot more women.

Sadly, I feel like these dudes smell desperation and fear, and they prey on it.

[Sunny123 44]

Sadly, I feel like these dudes smell desperation and fear, and they prey on it.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Sunny123

[msheesha 548]

Is it just me or was that not on topic???

Isnt the topic a conversation about whether there is truly an abuse of power in the us consulate in casa or if they are just detecting fraud to the best of their ability?