Gunman shoots 4 officers inside Detroit precinct

[Captain Oates 911]

Guess how many times I've been burgled?

If you do get burgled there will be brains and blood all over the walls in your house. It might be theirs or it might be yours but they are going to mean it and there will be a murderous gun fight in your house

A high chance of being burgled by a Michael Jackson type is better than a lower chance of being burgled by a Mike Tyson type

A UK burglary is a heck of a lot better than a US burglary

Tooling up for a house full of torn intestines and knee deep in blood and ripped eyeballs is a much worse situation than having one's DVD player stolen by a spotty git from the council estate

I sometimes think the defensive gun people would actually relish a gun fight in the house and think about it every day and say 'bring it on'. It's not domestic tranquility in my book.

It will cost you a bundle whether it's in jail time or lawyers costs if there is a gunfight in your house - it's not like a tombstone gunfight where the sheriff winks and says 'you did the community a favor'. It would mess your life up big style for a long time whoever gets killed. A no-win situation.

The UK setup is much better - get ALL guns out of the picture and restrict them to the field or range

I know it makes no sense to a person steeped in the American culture who actually gets a warm feeling when they send their kid to college with a gun in their school bag. I will never understand that being a good way to live but it is simply a different culture - like eating dogs in Korea or eating ancestor's brains in Borneo. The Brits/Europeans etc simply don't realise how massive the culture difference is and are deceived by the Americans speaking a form of English into thinking that dissuading them from these ideas is even faintly possible in their culture..

It's like the concept of the Police visiting you at home when you apply for a firearms certificate. My American wife is simply appalled by that idea even though she hates guns - whereas Europeans want that safeguard - even the keen shooters want it. It's a different mind set in the US that goes very deep - very, very different. If 'freedom' clashes with public safety, public safety is going to loose by a big margin every time and the dead are collateral damage and it's a pity but that's how it goes here on the frontier. Americans are still playing cowboys and bad guys in their psyche

I could have fitted in easier in Japan I reckon because I would have expected the deep differences more, but I understand the American psyche more and more now so the hard work has been done and I can deal with it.

I also know I can't change it and in a thousand years it will still be ankle holsters and flashing sirens and blood in the street..

[The_Dude 1,142]

We have a lot of posters here on VJ who claim they've never seen a gun whilst out and about either - and they've spent all their years in the good 'ol US of A. How do you explain that one?

It sounds to me like you've had a lot of guns pulled on you since being here. Is that the case? Do you often walk alone (or not alone) home down dark alleys at 3:00 AM and see guns?

Or are you just talking about the society you see on TV and/or hear about on the news?

I live in an urban area that averages a few homicides a week. I see it on the news every night, see it in the newspaper, and constantly have to deal with folks who tell me how unsafe guns are because of it. Care to take a guess how many times I've seen a gun while out and about?

Retains too much heat. I can make fries in my sleep!

I have no problem with WHO is in the government, I have a problem with government, period. Our government was never meant to be the biggest company in the world. It was meant to be, almost exactly as you said, a representative of the people.

Somewhere along the way we decided we needed government for everything from telling us how to remodel our house to how to save for retirement and everything in between. Some folks are actually asking the government to start taking care of our physical health. Have we lost the ability to do that ourselves? Are we not responsible enough for our own well-being?

There was a time in this country where government said "you can't do this." Now, it seems, doofus americanus has to check with his uncle to see if he has permission to do anything. He's not at liberty to do anything on his own accord he's only "allowed" to do whatever big brother says is OK.

I can almost agree with this. I like it more than "police should outgun citizens" but I don't like the fact that the military is still armed and citizenry is not. Plus that whole foreign invaders thing since someone in the world still has guns too.

Every incident where someone shoots at you should!

By your logic it would be better to hide under a desk and call 9-1-1? Who do the cops call when they call 9-1-1? "Dunh, duh duuuuuh, dunh, duh, duuuuuuh....." STOP SINGING THAT SONG!!!!

I also must've missed the part about them turning on each other and continuing to fire. Did I miss that? I usually here something like, "well, if everyone was armed then they'd all shoot each other." Strange that didn't happen here, isn't it?

Guess how many times I've been burgled?

Shooting someone is an act of last resort from law enforcement slim. There is a very good reason why they get specialized weapons training, and why you are prohibited from using firearms for a while longer.

[james&olya 1,121]

Bingo!

This is the way it was when our founders wrote the constitution.

At the time of the constitution, the citizen was armed with the same weapon as the soldier and as I pointed out above, often a better weapon.

Where are you drawing the conclusion that the military should outgun it's own citizenry? Is that your opinion or are you simply siding with all the other doofus americani out there who think we need Uncle Sam to have a large, standing army that can invade Anywhere, USA, at any time?

So you believe that any citizen not convicted of any felony and not judged by a court of law to be mentally ill should be able to own any weapon available to the military that they have the money to buy! Does this also apply to Muslim citizens with 'investment' income based on massive petrodollar wealth?

[Captain Oates 911]

So you believe that any citizen not convicted of any felony and not judged by a court of law to be mentally ill should be able to own any weapon available to the military that they have the money to buy! Does this also apply to Muslim citizens with 'investment' income based on massive petrodollar wealth?

I have posed the question before but here it is again.

A big nasty drunk living in a trailer. Everyone knows he does drugs. He threatens other people on the trailer park. Cars pull up at his trailer all through the night and sometimes he goes out at 2am and shouts and screams and waves a whisky bottle about. Everyone is terrified of him. He has no felony convictions and has not been judged insane.

In the UK he does not get a gun

In the US he can LEGALLY go and get a semi auto version of the AK47 and an AR-15 and a semi auto shotgun and he can fill his trailer with ammunition of all types and leave it around the trailer even though he has two hyper active boys with hysterical emotional problems.

The thing is this - almost every American gun person on VJ is strongly in favor of this being the guy's right and he should be allowed to continue as he is not a felon or judged insane

NO European can get their head round that BUT there is no point in Europeans and Americans discussing this stuff coz it's like trying to tell a cat that it's wrong to chase mice. It's outside the scope of their imagination. It is impossible !

Edited January 25, 2011 by Alan the Red

[slim 1,525]

If you do get burgled....

and blood in the street..

Edited only for brevity, not to cut out all those gems of reality.

Care to take a stab at any of the other questions I posed? You've already made it abundantly clear you live in a really violent part of the country where society is one big vulgar dose of carnage. No need to elaborate on that any more. I get it. America is horribly violent, even for those of us who've never been burglarized.

Shooting someone is an act of last resort from law enforcement slim.

Thank you, Captain Obvious!

There is a very good reason why they get specialized weapons training, and why you are prohibited from using firearms for a while longer.

What is that reason? What are both reasons?

So you believe that any citizen not convicted of any felony and not judged by a court of law to be mentally ill should be able to own any weapon available to the military that they have the money to buy!

Absolutely. I don't understand why we trust the government but don't trust each other. That makes ZERO sense to me.

Does this also apply to Muslim citizens

Do you not believe in the 1st Amendment either?

with 'investment' income based on massive petrodollar wealth?

Are you implying Saudi Arabia has been funding terrorists by financing Muslim Americans to purchase weapons in the US?

Please step back and read that one over again. Is that really what you're implying? Americans actually believe that #######?

[slim 1,525]

trying to tell a cat that it's wrong to chase mice. It's outside the scope of their imagination. It is impossible !

So are you a cat or a mouse?

[The_Dude 1,142]

What is that reason? What are both reasons?

The first one is obvious. The second, well, feel free to tell everyone if you like, you're the best person to answer that question.

[slim 1,525]

The first one is obvious. The second, well, feel free to tell everyone if you like, you're the best person to answer that question.

Are you implying that training has something to do with how violent this country is or why/why not cops shoot people?

What are you getting at?

[james&olya 1,121]

Absolutely. I don't understand why we trust the government but don't trust each other. That makes ZERO sense to me.

Do you not believe in the 1st Amendment either?

Are you implying Saudi Arabia has been funding terrorists by financing Muslim Americans to purchase weapons in the US?

Yes, I believe in the 1st Amendment!!! I doubt Saudi Arabia is getting muslim-americans to purchase weapons here for several reasons. They don't need to since we sell them things like F-16's, etc already. But I do believe that there are Saudi citizens with significant wealth that would not mind seeing the US brought down. I ask you again if you are in favor of all US citizens having the right to buy any weapon system made. (with the exceptions of those with criminal convictions and determined in court to have mental illness). Or do you reserve those rights for some smaller, more select group?

[slim 1,525]

Yes, I believe in the 1st Amendment!!! I doubt Saudi Arabia is getting muslim-americans to purchase weapons here for several reasons. They don't need to since we sell them things like F-16's, etc already. But I do believe that there are Saudi citizens with significant wealth that would not mind seeing the US brought down. I ask you again if you are in favor of all US citizens having the right to buy any weapon system made. (with the exceptions of those with criminal convictions and determined in court to have mental illness). Or do you reserve those rights for some smaller, more select group?

I wouldn't mind if criminals and mentally ill had guns too.

[Captain Oates 911]

America IS horribly violent with a gun murder rate per 100,000 which is FORTY FOUR times that of the UK. The US has 5% of the world's population and 25 % of the world's prison population ! The UK is violent compared to the rest of Europe but not remotely in the same league

Any American who doesn't think that America doesn't have a huge gun violence problem is living in the same mind state as Joan Rivers who thinks she is beautiful

Any American who doesn't want to know why, and how to change that, and just decides to kill anyone who poses a threat to himself, is not very caring of his nation's future or his fellow citizens. Of course 'caring for fellow citizens' could be see as socialism - so that's probably why.

Whatever and whyever, it's a pretty disgraceful situation that is being deliberately allowed and thus facilitated.

I wouldn't mind if criminals and mentally ill had guns too.

There goes your cred - forever

Edited January 25, 2011 by Alan the Red

[slim 1,525]

America IS horribly violent with a gun murder rate per 100,000 which is FORTY FOUR times that of the UK.

Something's fuzzy with your math there, chief.

The US has 5% of the world's population and 25 % of the world's prison population !

You guys can't afford to jail people for all the petty stuff we do.

The UK is violent compared to the rest of Europe but not remotely in the same league

As long as it's not 44% then who cares, right?

Any American who doesn't think that America doesn't have a huge gun violence problem is living in the same mind state as Joan Rivers who thinks she is beautiful

Any American who doesn't want to know why, and how to change that, and just decides to kill anyone who poses a threat to himself, is not very caring of his nation's future or his fellow citizens. Of course 'caring for fellow citizens' could be see as socialism - so that's probably why.

If you'll notice, in America, folks from the council estates don't victimize the rest of us.

Whatever and whyever, it's a pretty disgraceful situation that is being deliberately allowed and thus facilitated.

I agree, that's why I aim to change it!

There goes your cred - forever

Criminals have guns already. Mentally ill have guns already. Yet, it's illegal, isn't it?

Who's credible now.

[james&olya 1,121]

There goes your cred - forever

I just think he is proving he cannot be pinned down in a debate! It's OK, the point was made.

[james&olya 1,121]

Criminals have guns already. Mentally ill have guns already. Yet, it's illegal, isn't it?

Who's credible now.

Just because a few have them now does not mean it would not be significantly worse if all were openly allowed this 'right'!

[james&olya 1,121]

I wouldn't mind if criminals and mentally ill had guns too.

While we are on this point how would you propose we deal with would-be suicide terrorists? Since the range of weapons would rightly include military grade explosives, should a 'citizen' be allowed to make a vest of said material, cover it with nails and ball bearings, and equip it with a detonator? Then be allowed to attend a political rally or a super bowl game, go to a packed church or synagogue? Do you seriously still feel that we should allow all citizens access to all weapons?