The hoping not to be denied at Casablanca thread

[Staashi 371]

Someone's comment about the Casa CO's going by the experiences they've had in the culture in which they are immersed- I can totally understand that.. No one trusts anyone here.. However, their job is to be objective and base their decisions on hard facts, not stereotypes and speculation.

Yeah, Sarah, but hard facts just don't cut it. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can meet online, have chat logs out the wazoo, go to Morocco, take 100s of pictures, get engaged, yada, yada, yada - there's your proof. So you go and show it to the CO saying, "here's my proof. See, we're bonafide - these pictures and chat logs and everything else proves it." But if I was a CO and I had seen 20 other dudes walk in with their pics, chat logs, letters and phone bills and the disparity was still overwhelming - I'd probably have to deny them too.

[Always+Forever 7]

I think most people in all religions have the temptation rationalize their negative behavior nd pick and choose things from their religion that work for them. So, while it'd be nice to be able to assume that religiousity = honesty, I don't think that's always the case.

Monica, as far as what they want from you, I think they gave you some clues in your interview. How do you sucessfully explain why you were on an Islamic website to meet people, and prove that you are financially self-sufficient to the point that you would not accept $ in return for visa assistance. I don't know how to go about proving that. If you're up for it, a consultation with an immigration atty specializes in denials at the consulate level might be worth it. Or, perhaps trying to get your question answered during the free chat that Laurel Scott does might be helpful. Just some food for thought.

I'm not saying i disagree with them having doubt, but if they were truely concerned about my financial situation then they should ask for the affidavit of support (they didn't) and any answer my fiance would give wouldn't convince them for why I was on a muslim dating site, because that would be a question for me. I know that I will one day convert to islam, and so want a husband that will be able to help me learn as much as possible....but I still have a lot to learn...i'm not in to jumping in to something, especially a relgion, even if i know i will be there eventually. But as I said...if these were truely concerns...why not ask for the evidence concerning it?

Malika

[KittyPollitt 284]

Yeah, Sarah, but hard facts just don't cut it. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can meet online, have chat logs out the wazoo, go to Morocco, take 100s of pictures, get engaged, yada, yada, yada - there's your proof. So you go and show it to the CO saying, "here's my proof. See, we're bonafide - these pictures and chat logs and everything else proves it." But if I was a CO and I had seen 20 other dudes walk in with their pics, chat logs, letters and phone bills and the disparity was still overwhelming - I'd probably have to deny them too.

Perhaps then, the government should change their own guidelines and make "I don't like the looks of this guy" a reason to deny... Pfft.. seriously.. The rules for approving/denying applications are in black and white... consulates shouldn't get to pick and choose what rules they follow and deny people on the basis of a hunch, or to "test" their relationships..

[Always+Forever 7]

Perhaps then, the government should change their own guidelines and make "I don't like the looks of this guy" a reason to deny... Pfft.. seriously.. The rules for approving/denying applications are in black and white... consulates shouldn't get to pick and choose what rules they follow and deny people on the basis of a hunch, or to "test" their relationships..

SERIOUSLY....spend 3+ mths together with a child & go through all of that & then tell me that our relationship has not been tested!! If we can get through the attitude of a 4 yr old testing new boundries...we should be able to get through the visa process And truthfully...a man looking to just get a visa would NOT put up with the ####### my daughter put my fiance through...they wouldn't waste their time...there are waaaay too many easier "fish in the sea" to catch that would be more than willing to fall "head over hills" with them over night....definitely not happening here though...lol

Malika

[Crossed_fingers 128]

IMO religiousness does not equal morality. I feel that religion has no bearing on fraud cases. I'm married to a non religious person. Is there a level of fraud in my marriage, who knows. I've been married 5 years, he's had his 10 year for 2.5. Those are my fraud/non fraud credentials. Of course, I'm not married to a Moroccan so I'm not sure if that counts much. I get involved in your convos since the Egyptian delegates seemed to have jumped ship and/or do not have many lively/interesting conversations lately.

I tend to agree. It's very difficult to tell who is actually very pious and who is just impressing a Westerner by claiming piety. Even if he has genuine faith, people can rationalize anything. Heck, I've heard of some scammers who say if they convert the girl to Islam in the process all of their sins are wiped away and they are back at zero because they contributed to the creation of a new Muslim, even if they promptly broke her heart! I'd like to think, PERSONALLY, that a TRULY pious man of any faith wouldn't hurt another person that way, but for immigration purposes I'd say that means just about nothing and should mean just about nothing. And of course a non-religious person can have a heart of gold and true intentions and shouldn't be discriminated against just because they find their moral center another way.

BTW, JVTA, I enjoy your posts and I hope you keep contributing on the Moroccan topics! Personally, I think we agree about 80% of the way and even if we differed completely I think you have good opinions. I love debating and discussing this stuff. Even though I know talking about what "should" be and pinpointing the exact red flags that "really" demonstrate fraud, etc., etc., won't actually do anything for us on interview day, it helps pass the time.

[Mithra 1,185]

Thank you, Crossed Fingers.

The beauty of this forum as a whole is the differing points of view and opinions. If we all agreed all the time this place would be boring. That's why I stick around even though I'm doing nothing in regards to immigration right now. I love the debate and I love picking everyone's brain about certain subjects. It seems right now there are mostly Morocco people around so that's where the action is.

[Always+Forever 7]

I tend to agree. It's very difficult to tell who is actually very pious and who is just impressing a Westerner by claiming piety. Even if he has genuine faith, people can rationalize anything. Heck, I've heard of some scammers who say if they convert the girl to Islam in the process all of their sins are wiped away and they are back at zero because they contributed to the creation of a new Muslim, even if they promptly broke her heart! I'd like to think, PERSONALLY, that a TRULY pious man of any faith wouldn't hurt another person that way, but for immigration purposes I'd say that means just about nothing and should mean just about nothing. And of course a non-religious person can have a heart of gold and true intentions and shouldn't be discriminated against just because they find their moral center another way.

BTW, JVTA, I enjoy your posts and I hope you keep contributing on the Moroccan topics! Personally, I think we agree about 80% of the way and even if we differed completely I think you have good opinions. I love debating and discussing this stuff. Even though I know talking about what "should" be and pinpointing the exact red flags that "really" demonstrate fraud, etc., etc., won't actually do anything for us on interview day, it helps pass the time.

From what i understood...its the person that converts that has all of their sins "wiped away" not the person that converts them. I'm sure they would get lots of "points" on the good angel side, but I dont think it clears away all of the bad though. And converting is a choice...if they force someone to convert its not good either....atleast that's how it has been explained to me and i understand it. And as for it being difficult to tell the difference....i don't think it really is if u spend the time with the person....ive seen those that "just try to impress" and there is a HUGE difference. And I'm not saying a non-religious person can not be just as pure at heart either. I was just wondering about the cases that have been approved from MOROCCO....because it is a muslim drivin country & we keep talking about cultural norms with the consulate, so wouldn't that make a difference? If a devote muslim is willing to marry someone that will never convert to islam I would think that would be a bigger red flag then a "holiday" muslim marrying a non-muslim. Just a few more thoughts to throw out there.

Malika

Thank you, Crossed Fingers.

The beauty of this forum as a whole is the differing points of view and opinions. If we all agreed all the time this place would be boring. That's why I stick around even though I'm doing nothing in regards to immigration right now. I love the debate and I love picking everyone's brain about certain subjects. It seems right now there are mostly Morocco people around so that's where the action is.

This is the Casablanca thread....lol

[msheesha 548]

With regards to a devout Muslim man marrying a non-Muslim woman who is not interested in converting, it's permitted in Islam for a Muslim man to marry a woman "of the books", i.e., a believing Christian or Jewish woman, etc. Ergo, it would not be against Islam for a devout Muslim man to marry a devout believing woman of other faiths that are permissible in Islam. Whether that's a cultural norm in Morocco or not would be another story. I know that when my husband told his parents about me their initials questions related to whether I was Muslim or not, and my age. I don't think they would have been terribly excited if I wasn't Muslim.

[Crossed_fingers 128]

From what i understood...its the person that converts that has all of their sins "wiped away" not the person that converts them. I'm sure they would get lots of "points" on the good angel side, but I dont think it clears away all of the bad though. And converting is a choice...if they force someone to convert its not good either....atleast that's how it has been explained to me and i understand it. And as for it being difficult to tell the difference....i don't think it really is if u spend the time with the person....ive seen those that "just try to impress" and there is a HUGE difference. And I'm not saying a non-religious person can not be just as pure at heart either. I was just wondering about the cases that have been approved from MOROCCO....because it is a muslim drivin country & we keep talking about cultural norms with the consulate, so wouldn't that make a difference? If a devote muslim is willing to marry someone that will never convert to islam I would think that would be a bigger red flag then a "holiday" muslim marrying a non-muslim. Just a few more thoughts to throw out there.

I agree with you about the convert being the one to get their sins wiped away, I just meant that I have heard some people - IMHO incorrectly - believing that they will also get that "back to zero" benefit for helping someone else find the path to Islam. Not saying they're just, just saying someone who is religious might earnestly think they're getting a free pass.

Interesting ideas about the cultural norms. I wonder how much they care whether the American is Muslim, especially since so many recent American converts marry Moroccan men. Reading various forums on the internet, some people opine that Moroccans are less likely to desert Muslim women than Christian women, and others opine that guiding a woman to convert is just part of the shtick.

FWIW, my current draft of my Question 18 answer has a fair amount about my fiance and I being pious Muslims and wanting that for our future family. I'm considering raising it because it would show something in common, similar values and goals, not because it would make him look more moral and less likely to scam. And while my current draft has that in there, it's one of the parts I most debate cutting. If I were talking to a friend about "Things I love about my fiance" I'd definitely talk about the religious side of our relationship, but bringing it up to a consulate seems vaguely icky to me, like we're trying too hard to look like goody-two-shoes, so I might take it out.

[msheesha 548]

SERIOUSLY....spend 3+ mths together with a child & go through all of that & then tell me that our relationship has not been tested!! If we can get through the attitude of a 4 yr old testing new boundries...we should be able to get through the visa process And truthfully...a man looking to just get a visa would NOT put up with the ####### my daughter put my fiance through...they wouldn't waste their time...there are waaaay too many easier "fish in the sea" to catch that would be more than willing to fall "head over hills" with them over night....definitely not happening here though...lol

Malika

With all due respect, I think if you continue to think like this, you'll continue to run into problems with the consulate. If the consulate is thinking fraud on your fiance's part, they are thinking that having someone visit for three months is easy, especially if they think they have their pass to the golden land of opportunity at the end of the 3 months.

If they're thinking you were looking for someone to pay you for a visa, being prepared and front-loading financial information seems like it'd be the way to go in the future.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, and looking at things from the most cynical of CO eyes.

Wasn't affadavit of support a document that needed to be sent in at some point? Either for the interview or prior to that? I know I included an affadavit of support for the K1, somewhere, and sent my taxes in at some point also, either at time of interview or before.

[Always+Forever 7]

With regards to a devout Muslim man marrying a non-Muslim woman who is not interested in converting, it's permitted in Islam for a Muslim man to marry a woman "of the books", i.e., a believing Christian or Jewish woman, etc. Ergo, it would not be against Islam for a devout Muslim man to marry a devout believing woman of other faiths that are permissible in Islam. Whether that's a cultural norm in Morocco or not would be another story. I know that when my husband told his parents about me their initials questions related to whether I was Muslim or not, and my age. I don't think they would have been terribly excited if I wasn't Muslim.

Exactly....I know its permitted to marry a woman "of the books" but like u said....not usually highly viewed by the family. You figure some families even have issues if a muslim man asking for their daughters hand does not do it "correctly". And that is a muslim/muslim relationship....all I'm saying is that I'm sure it is taken in to consideration when they interview, because I think even in the way they talk you can tell how serious they are about their religion...just my experience though.

Malika

[Miss smarty pants 84]

Yeah, Sarah, but hard facts just don't cut it. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can meet online, have chat logs out the wazoo, go to Morocco, take 100s of pictures, get engaged, yada, yada, yada - there's your proof. So you go and show it to the CO saying, "here's my proof. See, we're bonafide - these pictures and chat logs and everything else proves it." But if I was a CO and I had seen 20 other dudes walk in with their pics, chat logs, letters and phone bills and the disparity was still overwhelming - I'd probably have to deny them too.

Yeah? So then what would it take to prove it to you....if you were a CO? Sounds like you'd be denying everyone too.

[Mithra 1,185]

Haha, I meant in the forum as a whole. Notice the other threads, there's no action. The only threads with a lot of discussion are the Morocco threads, that's what I meant.

From what i understood...its the person that converts that has all of their sins "wiped away" not the person that converts them. I'm sure they would get lots of "points" on the good angel side, but I dont think it clears away all of the bad though. And converting is a choice...if they force someone to convert its not good either....atleast that's how it has been explained to me and i understand it. And as for it being difficult to tell the difference....i don't think it really is if u spend the time with the person....ive seen those that "just try to impress" and there is a HUGE difference. And I'm not saying a non-religious person can not be just as pure at heart either. I was just wondering about the cases that have been approved from MOROCCO....because it is a muslim drivin country & we keep talking about cultural norms with the consulate, so wouldn't that make a difference? If a devote muslim is willing to marry someone that will never convert to islam I would think that would be a bigger red flag then a "holiday" muslim marrying a non-muslim. Just a few more thoughts to throw out there.

Malika

This is the Casablanca thread....lol

[Crossed_fingers 128]

With regards to a devout Muslim man marrying a non-Muslim woman who is not interested in converting, it's permitted in Islam for a Muslim man to marry a woman "of the books", i.e., a believing Christian or Jewish woman, etc. Ergo, it would not be against Islam for a devout Muslim man to marry a devout believing woman of other faiths that are permissible in Islam. Whether that's a cultural norm in Morocco or not would be another story. I know that when my husband told his parents about me their initials questions related to whether I was Muslim or not, and my age. I don't think they would have been terribly excited if I wasn't Muslim.

As far as I know, eeeeeeeeevery Moroccan who knows my fiance has asked about my religion at some point. (Hahaha they probably ask about my age, too, but my fiance is too kind to translate that! ) That has been discussed in and outside of my presence many, many times. From the body language and facial expressions I can't imagine it would have been a good thing if the answer was, "No, she's Christian."

[Always+Forever 7]

With all due respect, I think if you continue to think like this, you'll continue to run into problems with the consulate. If the consulate is thinking fraud on your fiance's part, they are thinking that having someone visit for three months is easy, especially if they think they have their pass to the golden land of opportunity at the end of the 3 months.

If they're thinking you were looking for someone to pay you for a visa, being prepared and front-loading financial information seems like it'd be the way to go in the future.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, and looking at things from the most cynical of CO eyes.

Wasn't affadavit of support a document that needed to be sent in at some point? Either for the interview or prior to that? I know I included an affadavit of support for the K1, somewhere, and sent my taxes in at some point also, either at time of interview or before.

They never requested the affidavit of support & I know from previous posts that they usually don't for the K1s unless there is doubt about it. And as for easy....nothing is easy when a child is involved...lol

Malika