The hoping not to be denied at Casablanca thread

[msheesha 548]

I think one of the biggest factors in the education and training of CO's is the immersion into the culture where they're working - by living in the culture. So, they're very aware of cultural norms, etc. I think that many of the instances we've seen in Morocco fall outside the cultural norms. Believe me, I'm not a cheerleader for the consulate. We got differing information from phone call to phone call, depending on who called us, etc. But, I would hate seeing all the scammers in the cyber cafes day in and day out and then have to weed out legitimate people from what I see every day. I think some of the stuff they ask for is legit, and other stuff is putting people through hoops to see if they last.

I don't understand the connection between war and fraud. I haven't given it any thought though. What's the rationale for being easier on Moroccans than people from countries at war? What's the assumption?

[Crossed_fingers 128]

Right, I'm sure there are tons of petitions that would be downright laughable if they weren't so depressing. I don't think anyone is arguing that any consulate should give out visas like free candy to people who don't share a language with the petitioner. Are there ridiculous cases in Casa? Sure! Is the stereotype of a disabled grandma with 4 ex-husbands and a wicked case of eczema hooking up with a suave and sexy 22 year old true? Sure! How about couples who IM each other with hearts and flowers for 3 months since they don't know a common word between them, meet for a week, and file the next day? Sure!

Aww, heck, I'm probably being unfair on that last one. The Moroccan probably knows the English word for visa.

But seriously, I don't think the consulate is evil or even incompetent, though it's hard to judge. We'll really never have statistics on the actual rate of fraud, especially among the cases that are not laughably transparent on their face. Even if we had statistics they wouldn't mean much without knowing a ton of details about the couples...just because they pass the laugh test doesn't mean there's not something suspicious if you dig a little deeper. With that said, the consulate's attitude appears to be that all Moroccan men are frauds, and that flies in the face of all the lasting relationships that come out of the consulate. As Squeaky mentioned, I disagree with the propensity to not even look at evidence brought to the interview, or to ask bizarre questions like "what was the name of her middle school." (Unless the answer really doesn't matter and the CO is just looking at body language...I've always wondered when I read those wacky interview questions if the CO actually cares whether the interviewee knows the actual answer to some of them.) I also disagree with the "deny and see if they come back" approach to K-1 visas. If the consulate is really that on the fence, in my opinion they should do another interview or request more evidence.

[msheesha 548]

have any of the recent approvals received their visas yet?? Inshallah the recent interviews go smoothly for everybody.

Malika

We have our visa. Vanessa, how are things working out with you guys? I know you were having some problems with papers, etc. Visa in hand yet?

Any news from yesterday's interview?

[KittyPollitt 284]

What's the rationale for being easier on Moroccans than people from countries at war? What's the assumption?

The assumption that the average man living in a country at war will do anything to get out, and also, their families will arrange any marriage to get them out.. ohh also, far more likely to accidently import a terrorist from said countries than from here.. (not saying there aren't terrorist minded ppl here, just saying, c'mon, it's Afghanistan we're talkin about)

Edited July 9, 2010 by squeaky580

[sachinky 464]

Have you seen some of the average AP timelines for those going through Afghanistan and Iran?

[KittyPollitt 284]

Have you seen some of the average AP timelines for those going through Afghanistan and Iran?

I know it's really bad.. but what is worse? A year plus of AP, or being outright denied, given no reason, having your case expire, and then having to pay for another overseas trip, deal with an archaic court system to get married, then fork over another several hundred dollars to file again, with a denial (the reason for which is unclear) in your SO's file? Still gonna take a year plus..

I'd chose approval pending AP..

[Mithra 1,185]

I understand where you're coming at regarding wanting to get away from a warzone. Moroccans (Egyptians, Jordanians, etc.) may not be in a "warzone" but many are poor as poor can be. Poverty = desperation. Desperate to get out and get to a place where they feel they can have a better life for themselves and their families. Can't blame them for that, but they can't be doing it on the backs of American (or European)females. Unfortunately, that seems to be the easiest and most successful way.

As we've seen from 9-11, not all "terrorists" come from Afghanistan or Pakistan. The "terrorists" seem to know a better way of getting into the US other than marrying/being engaged to an American.

[Crossed_fingers 128]

Here's a question for those of us with Moroccan SO's, on the topic of fraud. Have you ever asked your SO about his observations on it? Whether he thinks it is as rampant as we do?

My fiance suggested once that in his opinion around 50% of the relationships he saw between Westerners and Moroccans were fraudulent. To be clear, that means the relationships he SAW walking around Morocco. That wouldn't include random guys in a cyber cafe chatting up women who never get to the point of actually visiting...that number would probably be much higher. And his 50% was only the frauds who would leave after getting their papers. It didn't include the relationships that were motivated by immigration, even if the man planned on showing his gratitude or piety by sticking around and fulfilling his part of the "deal" by being a real husband.

Just one man's opinion. I'd be interested in hearing any others.

I also heard estimates from two American women who had married Moroccan men and who had each lived in Morocco for many, many years. Neither met their man on the internet, one was set up by Muslim friends while she still lived in America and the other met her man when she was already living in Morocco. They both suggested that ALL Moroccan men who met women on the internet were frauds, every single one with zero exceptions. They were slightly less adamant but also suggested that every Moroccan who seeks immigration in his relationship, regardless of how the couple met, was also a fraud. Interestingly enough, both of these women assisted their men with getting citizenship; one divorced but immigration and fraud had nothing to do with it and they are still on good terms, and the other moved back to Morocco with her husband years ago and they've been together for 15 years.

[msheesha 548]

At the risk of being clobbered , I'd say that if I was a CO and saw any of the scenarios that Crossed Fingers described, I wouldn't look at the evidence either.

Even with some of the cases described here on VJ, as a CO, I'd want them to prove their relationship in some other way other than chat logs and photos. And if that entails more travel to the country and marrying there, that's what it is.

I don't think my situation was easy, but I made the choice to be in this relationship. Can't cry over my own choices and decisions. And, I don't think that waiting for a spouse/fiance in a war-torn country while he/she is going through a year of AP would be a bed of roses either.

[sachinky 464]

I meant IRAQ.

[msheesha 548]

We've never discussed percentages, but my husband has expressed suspicions of fraud when the relationship falls outside the range of what is generally culturally accepted in Morocco. Same kind of situation (red flags) that have been talked about ad nauseum on here. Large age and/or physical differences; etc. When I've been there we've seen couples like this - large age difference, large physical difference, etc. He will comment about it in regard to fraud and relationship for visas, etc. But, never talked about it in terms of %'s.

At one of the government buildings getting paperwork for marriage, we saw a young Moroccan guy with a French woman who was EASILY old enough to be his mother. At another building, we saw a couple where there was a very big physical difference btwn the American woman and Moroccan guy. He'll comment in situations like this where the differences are huge.

[KittyPollitt 284]

Here's a question for those of us with Moroccan SO's, on the topic of fraud. Have you ever asked your SO about his observations on it? Whether he thinks it is as rampant as we do?

My fiance suggested once that in his opinion around 50% of the relationships he saw between Westerners and Moroccans were fraudulent. To be clear, that means the relationships he SAW walking around Morocco. That wouldn't include random guys in a cyber cafe chatting up women who never get to the point of actually visiting...that number would probably be much higher. And his 50% was only the frauds who would leave after getting their papers. It didn't include the relationships that were motivated by immigration, even if the man planned on showing his gratitude or piety by sticking around and fulfilling his part of the "deal" by being a real husband.

Just one man's opinion. I'd be interested in hearing any others.

I also heard estimates from two American women who had married Moroccan men and who had each lived in Morocco for many, many years. Neither met their man on the internet, one was set up by Muslim friends while she still lived in America and the other met her man when she was already living in Morocco. They both suggested that ALL Moroccan men who met women on the internet were frauds, every single one with zero exceptions. They were slightly less adamant but also suggested that every Moroccan who seeks immigration in his relationship, regardless of how the couple met, was also a fraud. Interestingly enough, both of these women assisted their men with getting citizenship; one divorced but immigration and fraud had nothing to do with it and they are still on good terms, and the other moved back to Morocco with her husband years ago and they've been together for 15 years.

I don't trust Moroccan men very much at all.. I've dated them previously online, and several who were already in America. The very worst of the lying, manipulative Moroccan men I dealt with was already an American citizen- had NOTHING to gain from me.. He lied, he cheated, he stalked me, he was a COMPLETE @SS. Yet, here I am, living in Morocco. I try REALLY REALLY hard not to stereotype... (sometimes it's REALLY hard)

As for my SO, he barely trusts his own family members. Not to speak ill of them, but things have a way of mysteriously disappearing around here. He knows men who've married for immigration purposes and has a very low opinion of most men his age.. He suspects everyone of something shady... That's just the way you have to be over here..

Someone's comment about the Casa CO's going by the experiences they've had in the culture in which they are immersed- I can totally understand that.. No one trusts anyone here.. However, their job is to be objective and base their decisions on hard facts, not stereotypes and speculation.

[Always+Forever 7]

I'm actually to the point where I have no clue what they want anymore. So I guess we will see what happens with our case & go get married if need be. And I have also heard of and seen many fraud cases....but it is something that can happen with any country. One thing I'm wondering about our Moroccan men...for those that have shown & proven they are not fraud cases...how serious are your SOs in their religion? I'm wondering if this makes a difference also....i'm thinking if u have a man that "fears God" and comes from a family that is just as serious about their religion...does this make a difference on if they will be a fraud case or not?? What is everyones opinion?? And does anyone think there is any way to show the COs your are serious without them "testing" your relationship by denying u and making u start all over again?? Just a few questions to throw out there.

Malika

[Mithra 1,185]

IMO religiousness does not equal morality. I feel that religion has no bearing on fraud cases. I'm married to a non religious person. Is there a level of fraud in my marriage, who knows. I've been married 5 years, he's had his 10 year for 2.5. Those are my fraud/non fraud credentials. Of course, I'm not married to a Moroccan so I'm not sure if that counts much. I get involved in your convos since the Egyptian delegates seemed to have jumped ship and/or do not have many lively/interesting conversations lately.

Edited July 9, 2010 by je veux ton amour

[msheesha 548]

I think most people in all religions have the temptation rationalize their negative behavior nd pick and choose things from their religion that work for them. So, while it'd be nice to be able to assume that religiousity = honesty, I don't think that's always the case.

Monica, as far as what they want from you, I think they gave you some clues in your interview. How do you sucessfully explain why you were on an Islamic website to meet people, and prove that you are financially self-sufficient to the point that you would not accept $ in return for visa assistance. I don't know how to go about proving that. If you're up for it, a consultation with an immigration atty specializes in denials at the consulate level might be worth it. Or, perhaps trying to get your question answered during the free chat that Laurel Scott does might be helpful. Just some food for thought.