More than a million (illegal) immigrants land U.S. jobs

[Captain Oates 911]

BS! We would pay more for apples, so would everyone else. Vermont is overwhelmingly agricultural (and even a leading producer of apples) and has virtually no illegal aliens and one of the highest minimum wages in the country, and a minimum wage that adjusts every January 1.

What other workers could we take wages and benefits from? Auto workers maybe? Teachers? what other part of the economy would benefit? Clearly you are one of those that believes benefits and basic wages are for white people.

I have no issue with legal immigrants. Your "plans" mean nothing. Legal immigrants or even legal migrant workers need to be paid minimum wage, have benefits, work protections, payroll tax (SS and medicare) etc. etc. The employers will STILL hire illegals to save $$$ no matter how many work visas you give out. It does not matter how many immigrants you allow in, how easy you make it, if it is CHEAPER to hire illegals, employers will do it. NO PLAN to increase legal immigration or migrant workers has ANY HOPE of succedding unless you can stop everyone circumventing the law.

WHY are you against punishing employers for circumventing wage and hour laws for profit?

Yes but who would leave this EDEN called Vermont which has obsessed your mind so, to live out west and pick these apples ?

Not you for sure

If they authorised anti-personnel mines and phosporus grenades for home use, it might attract you for a moment - but I don't think you would go through with it and make the move.

The law could be enforced in 99% of cases today if the Gov wanted it and raised the fine to 100K and let seedy vigilantes (oops I mean patriotic contractors) seek out rogue employers for a commission.

[Pooky 3,850]

The law could be enforced in 99% of cases today if the Gov wanted it ...

And therein lies the main problem.

[Captain Oates 911]

And therein lies the main problem.

These eleven million or whatever are not living by drug dealing and stealing car radios - they are cleaning the toilet at the motel for Rush Limbaugh (imagine)and mowing the lawn for Glen Beck and disposing of stinking fish heads for Sarah.

The work could be dried up in a moment but it would hurt the economy as Limbaugh would have to stay at home instead of sitting in his 5 star hotel room, eating 12 lbs of spicy wings and wiping his podgy hands on the bed clothes for an illegal to wash.

There are no American workers willing to do this work for that money. It would hurt the economy as people would switch their spending from hotels and eating apples to buying Chinese squeaking frog toys for their dogs and South Korean computer games. Anyone who wants to keep the spending here and keep it taxed, should give the non criminal illegals a temporary work visa (only) and beat heck out of employers who employ people without that work only visa. It doesn't take an American job, it increases tax take and increases documentation massively while keeping the spending domestic.

Actually this is more or less the Republican proposal, so let me take back all I have said and give them naturalization certificates on demand at $1,000 a throw. It would be the only instance of the government finding a way to reduce the deficit and it would provide more cannon fodder for the army

[^_^ 5,021]

... give the non criminal illegals a temporary work visa (only) and beat heck out of employers who employ people without that work only visa.

I think you'd find a political majority behind such a proposal. But it is hindered by the far right and far left. The far left doesn't want a temporary work visa only - they want a path to citizenship. The far right wants them to be strung up by the balls and let teabaggers practice shooting on them.

[Captain Oates 911]

I think you'd find a political majority behind such a proposal. But it is hindered by the far right and far left. The far left doesn't want a temporary work visa only - they want a path to citizenship. The far right wants them to be strung up by the balls and let teabaggers practice shooting on them.

Actually the right have done their share of amnesties and their proposals look like mine - much to my shame.

They want cheap labor without the risk of being ICED. They own the orchards and the hotels.

When I say the right, I mean the rightist politicians who are the slavish lackeys of big business. Right wing citizens are the 'shoot em in the river' crowd and thus have a different position to the Republicans and their puppet masters. They rarely acknowledge that difference because really non of them or you are motivated by money or losing your jobs to illegals - but by fear and hatred of foreigners.

It's a good job Mexican men are not usually like Prussians - 6 foot 6 and handsome with a top university degree and expensively fragranced - or they would fear losing their women too

So they should be thankful for small mercies (no pun intended)

[Pooky 3,850]

The work could be dried up in a moment but it would hurt the economy ...

Yes, it would ... in the short term.

Then the economy would find a new level. Just because it will hurt, doesn't mean you shouldn't take that road. The illegal alien workers mean the economy is currently artificially depressed. Resolving the illegal alien issue will necessarily mean the economy finding a new level, but it would be one that is sustainable without needing an influx of illegal, cheap labor to make it work. Out of work Americans would have less of an reason to stay so. And some employers would face the consequences of their previous exploitative hiring practices.

But it takes enforcement. The States are leading the way, because Washington refuses to enforce Federal law. If enough States pass legislation, the Federal government may find itself running out of excuses. Times of economic hardship should see the government looking after its own citizens and legal residents, not turning a blind eye to a combination of employers willing to flout the law and a ready trade in illegal aliens depriving them of jobs.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Clearly some people do not care if humans are abused. Hey...cheap apples!

[Captain Oates 911]

Clearly some people do not care if humans are abused. Hey...cheap apples!

That is what every Republican politician believes - if they don't like it they don't have to do the work

Rand Paul says a restaurant owner should be able to bar anyone on any grounds because it's his restaurant - black , fat, female - any grounds

Republican business owners are loving the present position - it's only their supporters who haven't registered what's going on and just who is providing the honey pot. Employers want to be left alone to exploit illegals. Republican voters should turn their attack on these people first - but wait - that would dry up funds for the Republican party so it could affect - guns ! aaaargghhh !

hum - this is a two pipe problem Watson

It was a lot easier for rightos when the question was 'do you like foreigners who swim the river'...

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

I think you'd find a political majority behind such a proposal. But it is hindered by the far right and far left. The far left doesn't want a temporary work visa only - they want a path to citizenship. The far right wants them to be strung up by the balls and let teabaggers practice shooting on them.

I consider myself to be far left and I don't support a path to citizenship.

[^_^ 5,021]

I consider myself to be far left and I don't support a path to citizenship.

That would put you at odds with the activist base of the Democratic Party. If you don't believe me, spend some time on the web portals that serve as organizing platforms for the base. DailyKos and OFA are good examples.

Edited January 24, 2011 by \

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Clearly some people do not care if humans are abused. Hey...cheap apples!

Not really. There are not enough apple pickers that show up to pick apples when it is time to pick apples. So, they get whatever they want for wages, a premium wage for the apple picking season. Because of the labor costs, and not being able to compete with cheap Washington State apples, most of the apple orchards here have been turned to vineyards. A major processor, Vacu-Dry left town. It is not looking too good for your theory.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Some Old Guy

[james&olya 1,121]

Yes, it would ... in the short term.

Then the economy would find a new level. Just because it will hurt, doesn't mean you shouldn't take that road. The illegal alien workers mean the economy is currently artificially depressed. Resolving the illegal alien issue will necessarily mean the economy finding a new level, but it would be one that is sustainable without needing an influx of illegal, cheap labor to make it work. Out of work Americans would have less of an reason to stay so. And some employers would face the consequences of their previous exploitative hiring practices.

But it takes enforcement. The States are leading the way, because Washington refuses to enforce Federal law. If enough States pass legislation, the Federal government may find itself running out of excuses. Times of economic hardship should see the government looking after its own citizens and legal residents, not turning a blind eye to a combination of employers willing to flout the law and a ready trade in illegal aliens depriving them of jobs.

Pooky has this one nailed!

[Captain Oates 911]

Pooky has this one nailed!

One flaw - Americans will not do the jobs

Cleaning Rush Limbaugh's toilet or Sarah's cod guts

They wont do it

Not at any price

I wouldn't - would you ?

Hence illegals don't detract from economic activity. If people who don't like illegals on moral grounds were to say they would accept a lower level of economic activity to get rid of them then I would respect that.

However, saying that a lower level of economic activity does not make the nation poorer is clearly nonsensical

Suggesting that an unemployed 58 year old car plant worker in Michigan would live in a wooden field shack in Washington state and pick apples 15 hours a day for a pittance is more fantasy

The art is to work with the grain and get the best outcome - not against it

Edited January 24, 2011 by Alan the Red

[^_^ 5,021]

One flaw - Americans will not do the jobs

Cleaning Rush Limbaugh's toilet or Sarah's cod guts

They wont do it

Not at any price

Of course, you can't back this claim up with any data. I won't even ask you to produce the data because it doesn't exist.

Edited January 24, 2011 by \

[Ban Hammer 13,726]

I consider myself to be far left and I don't support a path to citizenship.

you must be a daily kos plant.