Have You No Shame, Mr. President?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct. 10, 2002.

The DIA document that warned that the connection between Al-Qaeda and Saddam was nothing but a misleading statement from an Al-Qaeda operative has been released to the Senate Intelligence Committee in Sept / Oct of 2005. The White House had that very document in February of 2002. The President harped on this ficticious link nonetheless just days before Sen Clinton made the above quoted remark and again just weeks before the invasion into Iraq. The President had information that would have been valuable to the Congress to make informed decisions but chose to withhold it. Can't blame the Congress for that.

you can argue the why's and wherefore's all day long, but the bottom line is that President Bush was able to set the political climate to enable the ouster of a brutal dictator who understood nothing but force. brilliant mr president! millions of iraqi people are living in freedom! is there violence there? yes, but now the people doing the violence can be hunted down and brought to justice. before, saddam hussein and his goons were doing the violence with impunity to innocent people that just wanted to be free.

LET FREEDOM RING!

If Saddam had never invaded Kuwait we would likely continued quite happily to support him (as we did in the 70's and 80's), regardless of how badly he was oppressing his people.

BTW - the people "doing the violence" are not members of some sort of independent army separate from the general population - they ARE the Iraqi people. The current sectarian violence is rooted in tribal differences going back very many years. As has been mentioned, Saddam's removal has had the effect of opening pandora's box, and the piss poor military planning by Rumsfeld et al, who ignored the advice of his own generals, is part of the reason why the current situation is as dangerous as it is.

While a democratically elected government might seem like something to cheer about, it means nothing if that government relies on foreign troops to ensure its internal security. Without a handle on that, foreign troops can't leave without the very real possibility that the country will devolve into civil war, in which situation its government officials who are usually "first up against the wall".

[dalegg 143]

you can argue the why's and wherefore's all day long, but the bottom line is that President Bush was able to set the political climate to enable the ouster of a brutal dictator who understood nothing but force. brilliant mr president!

I'm trying to make sure I understand this statement correctly. Obviously Sadaam wasn't ousted by any political means, so if I read this right you are saying that had there not been a political climate here in the U.S for war (debatable that there was actually one BTW), we never would have felt compelled to go to war. But you take this a step further by saying that Bush SET that climate and Bush says that the climate was caused by 9/11, so are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? Yabasta, is this you?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Yabasta, is this you?

I don't think Yabasta is "Pro-Iraq"

[mmmbop1976 1]

you make the assumption that the iraqi people want your lifestyle.They dont!!!! They hated sadam and they hate us too.The people of this region want theocracy its what there beliefs demand and throughout history theocracys are evil.Even in europe when a state is lead by religion it is always ready to take on evil,and by the way to radical islam we are evil.The bottom line is the taliban and osama were free to do as they pleased i dont think that is good for the usa.The people of this region have proven to me time and again that whan free to do as they please they choose any side that is against the usa.i understand your feelings about freedom and would fight and die to preserve your right to your opinion but i am not willing to die to give this right to someone who would use thier freedom to attack ours.

we'll have to disagree then. there is a democratically elected government in iraq, progress is being made in infrastructure, iraqi security forces are being trained, and the sectarian violence will end at some point, and hopefully soon. freedom is a very powerful desire to all humans. nobody want to be told what to think or how to act or what to believe. the people of this region have lived without it for so many centuries that it's foreign to them at this point. but as hope of a brighter future takes seed in iraq, the violence will subside and peace will reign.

LET FREEDOM RING!

hmmm... a rather optimistic appraisal of the current situation.

yes, you might call me an optimist. unlike the pessimists on the left, i believe that people living in freedom will eventually get it right. in fact history pretty much bears that out.

[dalegg 143]

Yabasta, is this you?

I don't think Yabasta is "Pro-Iraq"

Maybe this is a trick. Trust no one.

[mmmbop1976 1]

you can argue the why's and wherefore's all day long, but the bottom line is that President Bush was able to set the political climate to enable the ouster of a brutal dictator who understood nothing but force. brilliant mr president!

I'm trying to make sure I understand this statement correctly. Obviously Sadaam wasn't ousted by any political means, so if I read this right you are saying that had there not been a political climate here in the U.S for war (debatable that there was actually one BTW), we never would have felt compelled to go to war. But you take this a step further by saying that Bush SET that climate and Bush says that the climate was caused by 9/11, so are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? Yabasta, is this you?

no clue who yabasta is. no i don't think pres bush caused 9/11. events happen and pres bush was able to set a political climate based on those events to make the ouster of hussein possible.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

you make the assumption that the iraqi people want your lifestyle.They dont!!!! They hated sadam and they hate us too.The people of this region want theocracy its what there beliefs demand and throughout history theocracys are evil.Even in europe when a state is lead by religion it is always ready to take on evil,and by the way to radical islam we are evil.The bottom line is the taliban and osama were free to do as they pleased i dont think that is good for the usa.The people of this region have proven to me time and again that whan free to do as they please they choose any side that is against the usa.i understand your feelings about freedom and would fight and die to preserve your right to your opinion but i am not willing to die to give this right to someone who would use thier freedom to attack ours.

we'll have to disagree then. there is a democratically elected government in iraq, progress is being made in infrastructure, iraqi security forces are being trained, and the sectarian violence will end at some point, and hopefully soon. freedom is a very powerful desire to all humans. nobody want to be told what to think or how to act or what to believe. the people of this region have lived without it for so many centuries that it's foreign to them at this point. but as hope of a brighter future takes seed in iraq, the violence will subside and peace will reign.

LET FREEDOM RING!

hmmm... a rather optimistic appraisal of the current situation.

yes, you might call me an optimist. unlike the pessimists on the left, i believe that people living in freedom will eventually get it right. in fact history pretty much bears that out.

Well thanks for the obligatory "liberal" dig - but it's not about being left, right, up or down - as much as it is about being realistic. 3+ years have gone and the insurgency is still as entrenched as it always was, same is true in Afghanistan. Going to take a long time before anything approaching political stability takes hold over there. Anyone who thinks our troops will be out of there in 5 or even 10 years is sadly deluding themselves.

[mmmbop1976 1]

you can argue the why's and wherefore's all day long, but the bottom line is that President Bush was able to set the political climate to enable the ouster of a brutal dictator who understood nothing but force. brilliant mr president!

I'm trying to make sure I understand this statement correctly. Obviously Sadaam wasn't ousted by any political means, so if I read this right you are saying that had there not been a political climate here in the U.S for war (debatable that there was actually one BTW), we never would have felt compelled to go to war. But you take this a step further by saying that Bush SET that climate and Bush says that the climate was caused by 9/11, so are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? Yabasta, is this you?

no clue who yabasta is. no i don't think pres bush caused 9/11. events happen and pres bush was able to set a political climate based on those events to make the ouster of hussein possible.

let me clarify.....i believe osama bin laden caused 9/11. i'm not a conspiracy theorist

you make the assumption that the iraqi people want your lifestyle.They dont!!!! They hated sadam and they hate us too.The people of this region want theocracy its what there beliefs demand and throughout history theocracys are evil.Even in europe when a state is lead by religion it is always ready to take on evil,and by the way to radical islam we are evil.The bottom line is the taliban and osama were free to do as they pleased i dont think that is good for the usa.The people of this region have proven to me time and again that whan free to do as they please they choose any side that is against the usa.i understand your feelings about freedom and would fight and die to preserve your right to your opinion but i am not willing to die to give this right to someone who would use thier freedom to attack ours.

we'll have to disagree then. there is a democratically elected government in iraq, progress is being made in infrastructure, iraqi security forces are being trained, and the sectarian violence will end at some point, and hopefully soon. freedom is a very powerful desire to all humans. nobody want to be told what to think or how to act or what to believe. the people of this region have lived without it for so many centuries that it's foreign to them at this point. but as hope of a brighter future takes seed in iraq, the violence will subside and peace will reign.

LET FREEDOM RING!

hmmm... a rather optimistic appraisal of the current situation.

yes, you might call me an optimist. unlike the pessimists on the left, i believe that people living in freedom will eventually get it right. in fact history pretty much bears that out.

Well thanks for the obligatory "liberal" dig - but it's not about being left, right, up or down - as much as it is about being realistic. 3+ years have gone and the insurgency is still as entrenched as it always was, same is true in Afghanistan. Going to take a long time before anything approaching political stability takes hold over there. Anyone who thinks our troops will be out of there in 5 or even 10 years is sadly deluding themselves.

and freedom is worth it! freedom for all, left, right, up, down, black, white, green, purple, male, female, everybody!....freedom! freedom! freedom!

[dalegg 143]

you can argue the why's and wherefore's all day long, but the bottom line is that President Bush was able to set the political climate to enable the ouster of a brutal dictator who understood nothing but force. brilliant mr president!

I'm trying to make sure I understand this statement correctly. Obviously Sadaam wasn't ousted by any political means, so if I read this right you are saying that had there not been a political climate here in the U.S for war (debatable that there was actually one BTW), we never would have felt compelled to go to war. But you take this a step further by saying that Bush SET that climate and Bush says that the climate was caused by 9/11, so are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? Yabasta, is this you?

no clue who yabasta is. no i don't think pres bush caused 9/11. events happen and pres bush was able to set a political climate based on those events to make the ouster of hussein possible.

let me clarify.....i believe osama bin laden caused 9/11. i'm not a conspiracy theorist

Okay, but it's interesting that you credit Bush for setting a political climate based on the events of 9/11 to invade Iraq. That's actually something he's critisized for and he sort of denies. A lot of the testimony around the 9/11 commission revolved around these very accusations and nobody else was calling it "brilliant"!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

and freedom is worth it! freedom for all, left, right, up, down, black, white, green, purple, male, female, everybody!....freedom! freedom! freedom!

I get it, you like the word Unfortunately without the stability resulting from autonomous internal security, which grants authority and legitimacy to the elected government, a word is all it is.

[mmmbop1976 1]

you can argue the why's and wherefore's all day long, but the bottom line is that President Bush was able to set the political climate to enable the ouster of a brutal dictator who understood nothing but force. brilliant mr president!

I'm trying to make sure I understand this statement correctly. Obviously Sadaam wasn't ousted by any political means, so if I read this right you are saying that had there not been a political climate here in the U.S for war (debatable that there was actually one BTW), we never would have felt compelled to go to war. But you take this a step further by saying that Bush SET that climate and Bush says that the climate was caused by 9/11, so are you saying that Bush caused 9/11? Yabasta, is this you?

no clue who yabasta is. no i don't think pres bush caused 9/11. events happen and pres bush was able to set a political climate based on those events to make the ouster of hussein possible.

let me clarify.....i believe osama bin laden caused 9/11. i'm not a conspiracy theorist

Okay, but it's interesting that you credit Bush for setting a political climate based on the events of 9/11 to invade Iraq. That's actually something he's critisized for and he sort of denies. A lot of the testimony around the 9/11 commission revolved around these very accusations and nobody else was calling it "brilliant"!

1st of all it's not only 9/11, but saddam thumbing his nose at the u.n. for years, the refusing u.n. inspectors into his suspected wmd facilities, all of these events led to the political climate that made his ouster possible. and your right, nobody else called it brilliant, i never said anybody called it brilliant. that is my opinion only, because the iraqi people were freed from a brutal dictator, i call it brilliant.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

because the iraqi people were freed from a brutal dictator, i call it brilliant.

Even if that was a secondary consideration?

Seem to remember reading not so long ago that some populated areas of Iraq were still without basic utilities.

[dalegg 143]

1st of all it's not only 9/11, but saddam thumbing his nose at the u.n. for years, the refusing u.n. inspectors into his suspected wmd facilities, all of these events led to the political climate that made his ouster possible. and your right, nobody else called it brilliant, i never said anybody called it brilliant. that is my opinion only, because the iraqi people were freed from a brutal dictator, i call it brilliant.

Alright, alright. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I've just never heard this exact one before and wanted to clarify I was reading it right. Stay free brother.

[mmmbop1976 1]

and freedom is worth it! freedom for all, left, right, up, down, black, white, green, purple, male, female, everybody!....freedom! freedom! freedom!

I get it, you like the word Unfortunately without the stability resulting from autonomous internal security, which grants authority and legitimacy to the elected government, a word is all it is.

you are partly right, it does need stability resulting from autonomous internal security, which grants authority and legitimacy to the elected government. and those things are progressing in iraq. but without those, it's not just a word, it is a hope and dream of oppressed and free people the world over.

1st of all it's not only 9/11, but saddam thumbing his nose at the u.n. for years, the refusing u.n. inspectors into his suspected wmd facilities, all of these events led to the political climate that made his ouster possible. and your right, nobody else called it brilliant, i never said anybody called it brilliant. that is my opinion only, because the iraqi people were freed from a brutal dictator, i call it brilliant.

Alright, alright. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I've just never heard this exact one before and wanted to clarify I was reading it right. Stay free brother.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

but without those, it's not just a word, it is a hope and dream of oppressed and free people the world over.

That sounds somewhat like a slogan - sounds nice, but doesn't mean a whole lot in a practical sense.