Military marvel's epic downfall

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110113/pl_afp/usmilitaryaerospacef35_20110113153609

F-35 looking more like white elephant

WASHINGTON (AFP) – The F-35 fighter jet, set to replace a large part of the US warplane fleet, has become the most expensive weapons program ever, drawing increased scrutiny at a time of tight public finances.

Following a series of cost overruns and delays, the program is now expected to cost a whopping 382 billion dollars, for 2,443 aircraft.

The so-called 5th generation fighter was built with features designed to help avoid enemy radar and ensure American supremacy in the skies for decades.

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But there is now the potential for competition from China, which this week unveiled its first radar-evading combat aircraft and fueled a sense of a military rivalry between the two powers.

At home, the Lockheed Martin F-35 is getting increased criticism even from some at the Pentagon.

[Related: India will soon fly first fighter jet built at home]

Defense officials say the original cost estimates have now doubled to make each plane's price tag reach some 92 million dollars.

At the same time, the contract awarded in 2001 had been planned to last 10 years, but has been extended to 2016 because of testing and design issues.

Lockheed Martin, which is working with Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems, is developing three versions of the aircraft, which are being designed for ground attack as well as reconnaissance missions.

The F-35A is designed to replace the F-16 and A-10 of the US Air Force, while the F-35C is designed for deployment on aircraft carriers to supplant to F-18, and the F-35B would have a vertical takeoff capacity and replace Harrier aircraft.

US Defense Secretary Robert Gates has warned the cost overruns cannot continue and expressed particular concern over the short take-off and vertical landing variant.

"The culture of endless money that has taken hold must be replaced by a culture of restraint," he said recently.

For the short-takeoff version, Gates has ordered "the equivalent of a two-year probation," adding that "if we cannot fix this variant during this time frame and get it back on track in terms of performance, cost and schedule, then I believe it should be canceled."

As part of a cost-saving drive, the Pentagon chief has decided to delay the purchase of 124 of the 449 units of this version until 2016.

Another bone of contention is a second engine being developed for the fighter by General Electric and Rolls Royce in case the Pratt & Whitney engine is not up to par. Gates contends this second engine is "unneeded."

Private analysts say the whole F-35 program is becoming a money pit.

"The incredibly unfortunate phrase 'too big to fail' applies to this aircraft more than any other defense program," said Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace industry analyst with the Teal Group.

[Related: Chinese stealth fighter makes first test flight]

"It's difficult to think of a civil or military program in the past decade that hasn't experienced similar delays and cost overruns."

Still, it may be hard to make many changes to the F-35 program because Britain and seven other countries have been closely involved in its development.

The United States is covering 90 percent of the cost of the development but has participation from Britain, Italy, Turkey, the Netherlands, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Australia.

Other nations, including Israel and Singapore, have signed contracts to buy the plane.

"The US wants a globalized JSF program for a combination of strategic and economic reasons," said Aboulafia.

"It greatly simplifies logistics, training and doctrine for coalition warfighting. Dominating the military aerospace export business is certainly a strong draw, too. It's as much an industrial policy as a fighter."

[JohnSmith2007 353]

We will soon see the end of manned combat aircraft. This generation of planes will be the last. Once we don't need to worry about the pilots health and safety the cost will come down.

[Pooky 3,825]

F-35 looking more like white elephant

The Thunderpig is the wrong plane. It's a little bit of everything, but doesn't excel at anything. It's overweight, lacks carrying capacity, isn't very stealthy and isn't as manoeuvrable as some of the kit already in service.

It needs to be cancelled. It needed cancelling years ago.

[alienlovechild 75]

We will soon see the end of manned combat aircraft. This generation of planes will be the last. Once we don't need to worry about the pilots health and safety the cost will come down.

How does a drone stack up in dogfight or against an enemy with SAMs?

[slim 1,530]

This is going to be the same type of problem we saw with the B-2. When you figure on $10 each for 1,000 units but then only build 10 units, of course those 10 units are a lot more expensive.

The Thunderpig is the wrong plane. It's a little bit of everything, but doesn't excel at anything. It's overweight, lacks carrying capacity, isn't very stealthy and isn't as manoeuvrable as some of the kit already in service.

It needs to be cancelled. It needed cancelling years ago.

When the dummies cancelled the F-22 it was all downhill from there. Obviously those with pens don't understand the needs of those with swords.

How does a drone stack up in dogfight or against an enemy with SAMs?

The drone in the picture would get smoked in both instances since it's not real.

[Pooky 3,825]

How does a drone stack up in dogfight or against an enemy with SAMs?

Remote pilot vs. pilot-in-plane?

As long as the transmission lag controlling the UAV is close to nil (i.e. real-time flight commands), the UAV has a big advantage. The manned dogfighter is limited by the g-tolerance of the pilot (About 9g currently). The UAV is lighter, because it doesn't have all the pilot's life-support systems, and is limited by the g-tolerance of the airframe, which could be upward of 20g. No contest.

And the next generation of UAVs is already test-flying. Compared to the prop-driven Predators you see in action now ...

... these UAVs are fast, stealthy and designed for more than forward intelligence and then adapted to carry ordnance.

[alienlovechild 75]

Remote pilot vs. pilot-in-plane?

As long as the transmission lag controlling the UAV is close to nil (i.e. real-time flight commands), the UAV has a big advantage. The manned dogfighter is limited by the g-tolerance of the pilot (About 9g currently). The UAV is lighter, because it doesn't have all the pilot's life-support systems, and is limited by the g-tolerance of the airframe, which could be upward of 20g. No contest.

It's never happened yet so I wouldn't bet the farm on drones. SAMs and AA missiles fly as well but they can be overcome.

Reminds me the time experts said close dog fights were obsolete because of long range missiles but the North Vietnamese proved that wasn't always the case.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

The F-22 is better anyway. Keep building them.

I like this video too, only about 30 seconds. It's an F-14. Turn the volume up!!

[Pooky 3,825]

It's never happened yet so I wouldn't bet the farm on drones. SAMs and AA missiles fly as well but they can be overcome.

Reminds me the time experts said close dog fights were obsolete because of long range missiles but the North Vietnamese proved that wasn't always the case.

Vietnam was a combination of one-third technology and two-thirds rules of engagement. It's hard to use long range AAMs when you have to visually identify your opponent. Since then, the technology has moved on generations, the missiles are far superior to those used in Vietnam and far deadlier, both the long range radar-guided ones and the close range IR guided ones.

The push to field advanced UAVs is relatively recent and the technology is getting to a point where they will be able to undertake the roles currently requiring manned aircraft. So, although a UAV vs manned plane engagement hasn't happened yet, it will and maybe in the not-too-distant future.

Whether it should is another question entirely. Technology is fine, but I would always prefer to have a trained pair of eyes on the spot, to assess the situation and make a judgement call should a situation arise. Removing the man from the equation makes it more likely for a commander to commit military forces, as the public back home cares nothing about the cost of losing the plane, they care about losing the pilot. A commander will always more more reluctant to risk lives than to risk unmanned hardware.

[Pooky 3,825]

The F-22 is better anyway. Keep building them.

In the numbers they originally ordered, the F-22 would have been almost as expensive as the F-35 Thunderpig. And it is a far superior airframe. Trouble is, production has already ceased and I'm not sure it can be restarted.