Morals; when to "help" or not

[Tero 105]

This site has become highly invaluable to users seeking advice or general/specific info. Unfortunately, it seems some abuse the opportunity. Sometimes, out of our willingness to help cases, we also perpetuate a fraud. Members are expected to not be judgmental, but sometimes, it is so hard to not be, when it’s just easy to see through some irresponsible cases and perceive a fraud. Question is; would it be fair to the other person involved (usually the petitioner) to help the OP (beneficiary) regardless of an obvious fraud? Amongst some ridiculous and shameless cases I’ve seen are;

1. Shortly after making it to the country, beneficiary suddenly decides they don’t want to be married anymore, and then run to VJ for advice on how to remain in the country in order to perfect or put a finishing touch to their plan.

2. Asking for what to do to remain in the country after cheating on their spouse that bore the responsibility to get them into the country.

It is hard to believe that a petitioner would pay ALL those fees, go through ALL that TROUBLE to get you here and then decide to not love you. We need to know when to draw a line and decide what cases should be helped and what should be ignored or reprimanded. We are all intelligent, so, if we see an obvious display of irresponsibility, infidelity, fraud, and we still offer a way out to the OP, we are also a part of the fraud.

In fairness to the other party (petitioner), when do we draw the line and refuse to “help” in order to not aid the obvious fraud? Don't you think we should know when to draw the line?!

[patient2010 93]

We are here to help and not judge.......if there is a question asked and one knows the answer then they can answer. It is not our job to say what is amd what is not fraud....we only get half the story. you have the right to post your opinion and others have the right to post there story and members have the right to answer

[sara..... 371]

The problem is we dont know what happened in the relationship....maybe the person is a total fraud or maybe there was abuse we have no way of knowing what lead up to the position that the person now finds them self in.......if we know something that answers the immigration question i think that we should give that information what they do with it after that is not our business i know i know i walk around with rose colored glasses on and there are really bad people out there that take advantage of others but its so hard to tell from a few sentences on a forum so i try to just give what information that i have and move on and yup i have also gotten bent out of shape over some of the stuff i see on here and have made some rude comments and for that im not very proud but it happens.......

just my opinion

sara

[Messybrownhair 251]

Thank you for this post.. I agree wholeheartedly to what you have said..

[Tero 105]

We are here to help and not judge.......if there is a question asked and one knows the answer then they can answer. It is not our job to say what is amd what is not fraud....we only get half the story. you have the right to post your opinion and others have the right to post there story and members have the right to answer

I think in all fairness, when we respond to questions, we should as well think about the petitioner that has the short end of the stick. I am questioning the morals behind, not the obligation. As much as you don't want to judge, are you willing to ignore that voice inside of you that tells you this is an obvious(not suspicious) fraud? An analogy would be to see a thief running away from the cops that ask you for cover, and you decide to cover him/her just because you think you don't know the full story or don't want to be judgmental. This post was inspired amongst others I've read, by another that states she just got her green card about a month ago but is about 2 months pregnant and her husband is not the father. What other full story would one want to hear before one sees a moral violation?

[Tero 105]

The problem is we dont know what happened in the relationship....maybe the person is a total fraud or maybe there was abuse we have no way of knowing what lead up to the position that the person now finds them self in.......if we know something that answers the immigration question i think that we should give that information what they do with it after that is not our business i know i know i walk around with rose colored glasses on and there are really bad people out there that take advantage of others but its so hard to tell from a few sentences on a forum so i try to just give what information that i have and move on and yup i have also gotten bent out of shape over some of the stuff i see on here and have made some rude comments and for that im not very proud but it happens.......

just my opinion

sara

I understand where you are coming from, as you cannot draw conclusions from certain cases. But, as I believe you've seen a lot, some are just plain and direct that you don't need to try to see through ....it's just plain in front of you. Morals or obligation? Remember the petitioner that has been USED!

[NigeriaorBust 4,087]

As a USC you are supposed to report crimes. Unfortunately from VJ sometimes you don't know enough specifics to make a report. However you should not support illegal activity once you are aware that is what you are being asked to do. There was one older but more or less well known case on here of a man from Nigeria that start out asking questions on spousal visas and then his story got funny , then he wasn't with his wife, then he got called out on his misaligned facts, then he got a new account. People stopped answering because his thinly veiled fraud made them uncomfortable. You should never make yourself uncomfortable. If someone posts something to the effect of " this is illegal but here is how it is done " you should report the thread to the mods. There are 2 sides to every relationship story but one should use proper judgement with how much help they give a non USC to find the back door paths.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

In both of the cases you illustrate, the fraud happened after the alien was already in the US. So the horse is sort of "out of the barn". By this I mean there is nothing we as readers to this forum realistically can do. We aren't witnesses to any behaviors.

If there has been a fraud perpetuated after the alien arrives in the country, the only person who can effectively report this fraud is the petitioner. And even then there may be little they can do.

[TracyTN 237]

I guess my measuring stick for replying to such things is are they asking for help to do something that is illegal? If so, I don't reply - at least not in any way that is helpful. Whether or not you want to yell at them for that and go elsewhere in a conversation with them is a personal call.

[sara..... 371]

I think in all fairness, when we respond to questions, we should as well think about the petitioner that has the short end of the stick. I am questioning the morals behind, not the obligation. As much as you don't want to judge, are you willing to ignore that voice inside of you that tells you this is an obvious(not suspicious) fraud? An analogy would be to see a thief running away from the cops that ask you for cover, and you decide to cover him/her just because you think you don't know the full story or don't want to be judgmental. This post was inspired amongst others I've read, by another that states she just got her green card about a month ago but is about 2 months pregnant and her husband is not the father. What other full story would one want to hear before one sees a moral violation?

I understand what your saying but i dont feel i have the right to judge anyone for their moral faults.....when i feel that there is a possible fraud or that they have in the very least used the person that petitioned for them most the time i dont give any information.... in this one case im unsure what to think either the person in question is cold, calculating,and manipulative or there is more to this story

sara

[Kathryn41 3,205]

If someone is asking for what appears to be illegal information, or you feel that their actions are morally reprehensible, then please report the post to the moderators so we can take a look, rather than attack the poster with your moral outrage or judgments. It is also important to remember that a post gives us only a few words to describe what is obviously a much more involved situation, and we are seldom in possession of all of the relevant facts.

While I understand that each of us has our own moral yardstick and wish others would behave the way we want them to, it is not our place to enforce our standards on others. If they are doing something illegal, you don't need to support them in any way through a response. If you chose to answer you can provide a response devoid of any judgment. You can certainly tell them that what they are asking/considering is illegal and point out the challenges/consequences they may face based upon the circumstances they have presented, but attacking them for their behaviour is a TOS violation. If you find yourself in possession of enough identifying information that you feel comfortable that ICE or USCIS can identify them from your information, then yes, you can report them, but please make sure you have the facts straight rather than cause problems for what may be sad circumstances that are in fact, totally innocent.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Kathryn41

[Tero 105]

In both of the cases you illustrate, the fraud happened after the alien was already in the US. So the horse is sort of "out of the barn". By this I mean there is nothing we as readers to this forum realistically can do. We aren't witnesses to any behaviors.

If there has been a fraud perpetuated after the alien arrives in the country, the only person who can effectively report this fraud is the petitioner. And even then there may be little they can do.

I do not mean to tell people what to do. I started this thread so people who are eager to help can think thoroughly sometimes before they do. If the fraud/"usery" is already committed, and the petitioner who has been wronged/used wants to take the right actions, but the offender runs to VJ for advice on how to counter what's coming on them, are we not tag teaming with the offender against the petitioner that has been wronged? Would it be morally correct for us to give info to the offender on how to further finalize their plan? If we do not know the whole story, the onus is on the OP to give it clearly, and if they fail to do that, I don't think we will be wrong to work with as much as we were provided.

[Tero 105]

I understand what your saying but i dont feel i have the right to judge anyone for their moral faults.....when i feel that there is a possible fraud or that they have in the very least used the person that petitioned for them most the time i dont give any information.... in this one case im unsure what to think either the person in question is cold, calculating,and manipulative or there is more to this story

sara

Rightly said, but would it not be a moral fault on us when we give them a way out from what they knowingly brought upon themselves? Somebody wants to know what to do to remain in the country just a couple of days after entering the country on a k-1 visa, deciding immediately they do not want to marry the petitioner anymore ...on the simple claim of having "cold feet!" At that point the only moral advise I can give will be that the OP return to their country if they do not want to be married.

The responsibility to give us a fair and clear story to see their "helplessness" is on them.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

I do not mean to tell people what to do. I started this thread so people who are eager to help can think thoroughly sometimes before they do. If the fraud/"usery" is already committed, and the petitioner who has been wronged/used wants to take the right actions, but the offender runs to VJ for advice on how to counter what's coming on them, are we not tag teaming with the offender against the petitioner that has been wronged? Would it be morally correct for us to give info to the offender on how to further finalize their plan? If we do not know the whole story, the onus is on the OP to give it clearly, and if they fail to do that, I don't think we will be wrong to work with as much as we were provided.

I haven't usually seen members giving advice on how to stay. On the contrary, I usually see members quite loudly telling posters to GTFO of the US.

But then maybe I'm just not reading the right threads in the right forum. I rarely read the "Effects of Family Changes" forum. It's just too depressing and sometimes it's too whacked.

[^_^ 5,021]

I haven't usually seen members giving advice on how to stay.

I have done that on occasion but the mods have always deleted those contributions Apparently, illegal is bad.