Has your MENA spouse changed their perspective/opinion re: the US after living here for some time?

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

I just wanted to clarify the whole cow comment. It had nothing to do with people. I was talking more about showing seriousness of relationship via proof such as a maher.. Sorry

No worries. No hard feelings. You and your daughter are always welcome to the Arab-American community. Just a little note about the Arabs; The Arabs come from many different tribes, regions, and religions...but in the end, they are still Arab. To say a Moroccan is not Arab is like saying a Korean is not Asian! To say a Lebanese is not Arab, is like saying a Nigerian is not African! Please do not listen to the clueless ignorant minority who deny their Arab identity. The Europeans speak totally different languages (French..English..German...Polish..), and are still united and proud of their European heritage. The Asians also speak totally different languages (Korean..Chinese..Japanese..Philipino..) and are also united as Asians. Now the Arabs speak the same (one) language, (let alone share a common history, culture, and tradition) and some clueless minority do not consider themselves Arabs!!!!! That is laughable. As a Lebanese, I can make the stupid argument and say, "Oh well, I am actually Phonecian, and not Arab". An Egyptian can ignorantly say, "Oh, my people come from the pharos, so I am not Arab". An Algerian can be naive and say, "Oh, some of my people are Berber, so I am not Arab". A Saudi Arabian can also say, "Oh, my people are actually Bedouin, and so I am not Arab". That is all NON-SENCE!. So who the hel! is Arab then? A Moroccan is 100% Arab. A Lebanese is 100% Arab. An Egyptian is 100% Arab. An Arab is an Arab, regardless wither he/she is Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Please do not listen to ignorant people who do not even know their own heritage and history. All of the Middle East and North Africa is 100% Arab (with the exception of Iran), regardless of what the uneducated minority might think. All Arabs share a common language, history, culture and tradition.

Again, no hard feeling...P.S: I like the Irish culture (I love St. Patrick's Day!)

[Jenn! 918]

What about Berbers who don't even speak Arabic? Are they also Arabs (by association, I guess)?

[sandinista! 1,816]

No, they aren't. And neither is it naive or uneducated of them to say they are in fact Berber.

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

What about Berbers who don't even speak Arabic? Are they also Arabs (by association, I guess)?

They speak Berber and Arabic...how else do they communicate with the rest of the population.

[Jenn! 918]

They speak Berber and Arabic...how else do they communicate with the rest of the population.

Not all Berbers speak Arabic. And you're saying that speaking Arabic makes you Arab? That's silly.

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

No, they aren't. And neither is it naive or uneducated of them to say they are in fact Berber.

Like I said, the Arabs come from MANY different tribes, backgrounds, and religions. It is very simplistic to say...oh, the Arabs are only those guys who live in the deserts of the arabian peninsula. NO. Being Arab is not an ethnicity. It is a national identity that ties people of different backgrounds together. Just like the Irish and the Duth are both European, and are proud of it. Just like the Nigerian and a South African are both African, and are proud of it. The Arab world is made of many little tribes and backgrounds. The Berber just happen to be one of them. The Berber are an indigenous people of North Africa. Are Native Americans not American? Are they any less American than the majority of the population? Are the people who speak welsh in the UK any less British than the rest? The colonial powers that controled the Arab word succeeded in dividing us into little factions and highlightened our differences to prevent us from ever uniting under a single strong national identity...and that is what you see now. It is sad. Some say, that I, as a Lebanese, I am not Arab beacuse I have white skin, blue eyes, and blondish hair...and my ancestry is Phonecian. Rubish! I know who I am, and do not need anyone to te me who I am. Yes I am proud of my Phonecian / Mediterrainian ancestry/background...but I am more proud of my larger national identity that ties me (the phonecian) with my brother and sisters who come from many different backgrounds in the Arab world...from Iraq to Morocco. It is sad that there are some (minority) of people in the arab word who choose to focus on there little tribes and differences, rather than uniting under one national umbrella the covers what we have in commom, WICH IS MOST OF THE STUFF. SAD INDEED.

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

Not all Berbers speak Arabic. And you're saying that speaking Arabic makes you Arab? That's silly.

No. The Arab world is made up of people from many different tribes, backrounds and religions. Being Arab is our national identity, regardless of our tribal ties..Please read my post above.

[Jenn! 918]

What do you mean "national identity"? There is no unified Arab country.

I have to say I don't really understand it. What does it mean to be "Arab" then? If you come from a Middle Eastern or North African country, you are Arab? Are Israelis Arab? What does a Moroccan Berber have in common with a Lebanese Christian, particularly if they don't speak Arabic? I also don't understand the insistence that others self-identify as Arab if they choose not to.

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

What do you mean "national identity"? There is no unified Arab country.

I have to say I don't really understand it. What does it mean to be "Arab" then? If you come from a Middle Eastern or North African country, you are Arab? Are Israelis Arab? What does a Moroccan Berber have in common with a Lebanese Christian, particularly if they don't speak Arabic? I also don't understand the insistence that others self-identify as Arab if they choose not to.

What does a Finish and a Dutch have in commom (they speak totally different languages)? A European identity! I would rather not comment on Israel (No they are not Arab...there are Arab jews however, who are as Arab as any Arab Muslim or Christian). Like the Europeans, you do not need to speak arabic to identify as having an Arab identity. It is complicated for a non-arab (westerner) to understand...but it is very clear to us. This are two

a you-tube documentary that might help a little:

Good Luck, and thanks for your interest.

[Jenn! 918]

My husband is Arab, and he doesn't think that Berbers are Arab. So I don't think it's an issue of being a westerner or not.

You sound like an Arab nationalist, and I don't think you speak for all Arabs.

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

My husband is Arab, and he doesn't think that Berbers are Arab. So I don't think it's an issue of being a westerner or not.

You sound like an Arab nationalist, and I don't think you speak for all Arabs.

It is one's choice to identify themselves with whatever they want. I know some berbers who embrase an Arab identity, and there are certainly others that do not. It is one's choice. It is not just the berber, there are also some other tribes within the Arab world who also do not want to identify themselves as Arabs...that is fine too. It is up to them. They are always welcome to belong if they want/choose to. No point of arguing. Offcourse I do not speak for all Arabs...just like an Asian cannot speak for all Asians...and just like a European cannot speak for all Europeans. Their no shame in an Asian being proud of his/her Asian heritage and culture. Their is no shame in an African being pround of his/her African heritage and culture. Their is no shame in a European to be proud of his/her culture. That is the beauty of the world we live in....the different cultures and traditions that make our world "tastful". Wither one chooses to belong to a certain culture, that is their choice.

Edited January 9, 2011 by ArabLoveMorocco

[Jenn! 918]

I guess we're on the same page then. I just got a different impression from your initial post when you said "clueless ignorant minority".

[ArabLoveMorocco 1]

I guess we're on the same page then. I just got a different impression from your initial post when you said "clueless ignorant minority".

Yep...the "minority" can choose to belong to the greater majority, or can choose to remain separated...It is their right and choice.

Jenn, I think we have totally went away from this thread's intention...Spousal opinion/perspective after living in the US! I feel bad for the OP. We can certainly start a new thread and continue this interesting conversation. I just got a little worked-up when I thought a poster compared Arab women to cows...not knowing that this is an Irish expression with a totally different meeaning...You see, me being an Arab, I did not understand this Irish expression, and took it the wrong way. Now that I understood the posters meaning, it is all water under the bridge. That is another example of the misunderstanding between different cultures, and why it is important and beautiful to learn about different cultures than one's own.

[oldahmed 38]

No worries. No hard feelings. You and your daughter are always welcome to the Arab-American community. Just a little note about the Arabs; The Arabs come from many different tribes, regions, and religions...but in the end, they are still Arab. To say a Moroccan is not Arab is like saying a Korean is not Asian! To say a Lebanese is not Arab, is like saying a Nigerian is not African! Please do not listen to the clueless ignorant minority who deny their Arab identity. The Europeans speak totally different languages (French..English..German...Polish..), and are still united and proud of their European heritage. The Asians also speak totally different languages (Korean..Chinese..Japanese..Philipino..) and are also united as Asians. Now the Arabs speak the same (one) language, (let alone share a common history, culture, and tradition) and some clueless minority do not consider themselves Arabs!!!!! That is laughable. As a Lebanese, I can make the stupid argument and say, "Oh well, I am actually Phonecian, and not Arab". An Egyptian can ignorantly say, "Oh, my people come from the pharos, so I am not Arab". An Algerian can be naive and say, "Oh, some of my people are Berber, so I am not Arab". A Saudi Arabian can also say, "Oh, my people are actually Bedouin, and so I am not Arab". That is all NON-SENCE!. So who the hel! is Arab then? A Moroccan is 100% Arab. A Lebanese is 100% Arab. An Egyptian is 100% Arab. An Arab is an Arab, regardless wither he/she is Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Please do not listen to ignorant people who do not even know their own heritage and history. All of the Middle East and North Africa is 100% Arab (with the exception of Iran), regardless of what the uneducated minority might think. All Arabs share a common language, history, culture and tradition.

Again, no hard feeling...P.S: I like the Irish culture (I love St. Patrick's Day!)

There are lot of misleading statements in this post. I believe North Africans feel differently about their heritage than the Middle Easterns do. North Africans recognize their multiple heritage; Arabs, Chaouis, Amazighs, M'zab, .... And Arab nationalism is not as strong there as it is in the Middle East. Saying that Morocco is 100% Arab is denying the identity of other "minorities".

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Yep...the "minority" can choose to belong to the greater majority, or can choose to remain separated...It is their right and choice.

Jenn, I think we have totally went away from this thread's intention...Spousal opinion/perspective after living in the US! I feel bad for the OP. We can certainly start a new thread and continue this interesting conversation. I just got a little worked-up when I thought a poster compared Arab women to cows...not knowing that this is an Irish expression with a totally different meeaning...You see, me being an Arab, I did not understand this Irish expression, and took it the wrong way. Now that I understood the posters meaning, it is all water under the bridge. That is another example of the misunderstanding between different cultures, and why it is important and beautiful to learn about different cultures than one's own.

I dont think you are quite understanding the story of the amazigh in Morocco, Algeria Tunisia and Libya.

Berbers are not really the minority in Algeria. Most in Algeria have some kabilye roots because the arabs didnt even arrive there until the 600 and the kabilyes or berbers fought them tooth and nail and even now, they face fierce repression because of their unwillingness to speak arabic over their native language. They now live in distinct areas of Algeria but at one time, the berber kingdom in Algeria was spread from coast to coast, their monoliths even found in the sahara. Each country in the magreb has a completely different berber identity but some traditions are similar, such as the story of the Kahina, a priestess who was rumored to be a Cohen high priestess who has children with 3 different men and slew them after their birth and raised armies of men against the marauding arabs. She scorched the earth of the kabilye high country and even though Moroccan berbers and Algerian kabilyes have differing languages and traditions, they have similar stories. They are not arabs whatsover, their language is closer to celtic or the basque language than the arabs and they are the true original people of north africa. Another thing to remember is that most in Algeria didnt even speak fluent arabic until after the Algerian revolution. They spoke french, algerian darja which is a mix of differing languages including arabic and amazigh. After Ben Bella took the presidency of Algeria after the fight against the French, then subsequently Boumedienne, Egyptian teachers were brought into the country to teach arabic because Ben Bella himself could not speak arabic when he went to meet the leaders of Egypt in the 1960s. It was at this time that teachers came into the country and among these teachers were some radicals that brought the egyptian brotherhood into Algeria and started whats now known as FIS. Before then there was no terrorism among the people of Algeria because they were united in throwing out the French. In the 1990s, more than 100,000 muslims were killed by other muslims and wahabism took root in Algeria. Morocco's story is much different because the berbers have been traditionally opressed in Morocco, unable to name their children what they want and in a consistant fight for their identity against pan arabism, which trivialises their history as some kind of cultural thing instead of a linguistic and national identity. Libya and Tunisia have berber identities as well but their cultures have absorbed it much differently than both Algeria and Morocco, mostly because of the strict totalitarian governments there and other social and linguistic factors

You can never tell a kabiyle that he is happy to lose his language , identity and culture to pan arabism. Their singers have been assasinated, their writers shot and drug through the streets and their music,language and culture repressed by a concept that is new to Algeria, imported by outsiders and incompatible with their history which is one of the Romans, Vandals, Goths, Numidians and in the last 400 year before the French, actually Turkish Ottoman, who are distinctly not arab. Morocco's berbers have a completely different story but they certainly could never be accused of being some kind of nameless minority. The berbers are the fighters of Morocco, the backbone, the mystical amazing secret people of Morocco. In fact, at one time, most of the officers in the Moroccan army were amazigh. Some Moroccans identify as arabs some identify as berber but all Moroccans will agree that they are certainly not middle eastern but distinctly magrebian, with different foods and traditions. You will meet Moroccans that feel they are arab but not all do and it certainly isnt a nameless minority..

I dont think you know enough about kabilyes in Algeria or the berbers in Morocco. You should not only read more, you should seek some out and talk to them. You will have a much different take on pan arabism afterwards. I have more in common as a celt with the kabilyes genetically than you do as an arab..Pan arabism was an import brought into Algeria in 1962 and the berbers of morocco have been struggling to have their identity against this plague of pan arabism for years as well