Do we *HAVE TO* get married??

[Krikit 1,164]

Sounds like your easiest route would be for your partner to immigrate to Canada. You are going to face an uphill battle once you hit the medical portion of the process since you will have to list the prescriptions you are taking..... and the doctor is going to notice that you present as female. I don't imagine their report to the Consulate will be favourable. Secondly, if you do get past that hurdle, you are going to be hit with it again at the Adjustment of Status (AOS) and the Removal of Conditions stage should you be sent for an interview. Considering the paperwork which will accompany you across the border, you can probably bet on your case being assigned an interview.

[coraliesolms 47]

Its not just going to be a fight until the OP gets his 10yr, but he will have to stay Male until he gets his citizenship. I would think if the US gave a male a greencard, they would expect to give a male citizenship.

[HeatDeath 430]

Its not just going to be a fight until the OP gets his 10yr, but he will have to stay Male until he gets his citizenship. I would think if the US gave a male a greencard, they would expect to give a male citizenship.

This one might not be as much of a problem. I can certainly see a situation where a male got a 10 year GC and then got GRS, thereby [in USCIS's eyes, but only theirs] dissolving the marriage. It "should" end up being treated like a post-RoC divorce [and those are certainly not unprecedented.] The now "unmarried" female can no longer naturalize under the 3 year rule, but should be able to naturalize under the 5 year rule.

I certainly hope I'm right. By a strict reading of the law, I'm pretty sure I am. As far as I know there is nothing in the medical regulations to disqualify the OP. Psychologically, he [get used to referring to yourself and being referred to as male if you go this route - the alternative is a complete non-starter] is not a harm to himself or others. And legally [assuming the passport is changed back to male] he is free to marry. He's taking some unusual medications and dressing like a woman, but neither of those are legal or medical grounds for denial. But unfortunately, there's no certainty to be had here that I'm aware of. This would be one big precedent-setting test case, pretty much all the way through.

An interesting choice to be made here is spousal visa vs. fiance visa. Marrying [heterosexually] in Canada would tend to reinforce the bonafide relationship aspect of the case, which, as mentioned above, would probably be the largest obstacle to overcome, but would require you to apply through Montreal. A fiance visa would keep the case in Vancouver, where they might be a little more liberal about this sort of thing, maybe. Making that tactical choice, and making it properly, might require consulting with an immigration lawyer who has dealt with both consulates.

I think this is definitely doable - far more so than if you had already had the surgery, but I agree with the other posts above. This will be an uphill battle, for at least 3-4 years, before you're done. Winnable, but definitely uphill. Good luck.

Edited January 5, 2011 by HeatDeath

[sciencenerd 56]

I hate to be pessimistic about this, but you are too far into your transition to pull this off without being open. You have a long time on hormones and legally changed your name. You will be required to list your female name (as an "other names used") in the application even if you were to legally change it back and you will almost certainly be asked about that. While you may technically be male using USCIS definitions, you will have a hard time getting them to approve your marriage as valid. I know of one case slightly different than yours (both partners were trans - FTM - and tried to get married after one changed all documentation but before the other) and their case was not approved because they basically said "you can't have it both ways". In other words, you know you're female/they know you're female and that your marriage as an opposite-sex one is built on a technicality. Per USCIS, you will be considered female for purposes of marriage when you get married in a place that recognizes you as female AND you have surgery. So, yes, you do qualify as a male. However, they know as do you that you will not qualify for long. I also know someone who was successful postponing his surgical transition until naturalization, but had been on hormones for quite some time (and as you likely know, transitioning to male can sometimes be more difficult to hide since testosterone's effects are so strong). I won't say that you absolutely will not get approved, but I will say I think it's pretty unlikely. It is a rare circumstance and I gave you the two cases I'm aware of where someone attempted to immigrate as their pre-transition sex. Immigration Equality is a good resource, although out of principle they won't represent you (they only represent people who are applying congruently with their gender identity, which is not an option for you), but they can refer you to lawyers. Jessica Boell is a good lawyer for this, but she's in Portland. She will likely repeat what I have said, but she may have other ideas for success. This is one of those situations where it's obvious how ridiculous it is that same-sex marriages are not recognized - you would have been fine had you done this pre-transition and you definitely would not be fine post-surgery, but you and your partner are the same people/couple. I really wish you the best of luck - there are no easy solutions here and, even if you could technically pull it off, you may just be trading one type of hell (being away from your partner) for another (presenting as a sex you are not). Note that if you do want to try this, I did not mean that you have to live as male, just that you will need to present that way to immigration. Like I said, though, I personally think you are far enough into transition that this is not an option for you. If there is any way for your partner to immigrate to Canada, it would definitely be the best way for you two to be together.

Edited January 5, 2011 by sciencenerd

[sciencenerd 56]

This one might not be as much of a problem. I can certainly see a situation where a male got a 10 year GC and then got GRS, thereby [in USCIS's eyes, but only theirs] dissolving the marriage. It "should" end up being treated like a post-RoC divorce [and those are certainly not unprecedented.] The now "unmarried" female can no longer naturalize under the 3 year rule, but should be able to naturalize under the 5 year rule.

I certainly hope I'm right. By a strict reading of the law, I'm pretty sure I am. As far as I know there is nothing in the medical regulations to disqualify the OP. Psychologically, he [get used to referring to yourself and being referred to as male if you go this route - the alternative is a complete non-starter] is not a harm to himself or others. And legally [assuming the passport is changed back to male] he is free to marry. He's taking some unusual medications and dressing like a woman, but neither of those are legal or medical grounds for denial. But unfortunately, there's no certainty to be had here that I'm aware of. This would be one big precedent-setting test case, pretty much all the way through.

An interesting choice to be made here is spousal visa vs. fiance visa. Marrying [heterosexually] in Canada would tend to reinforce the bonafide relationship aspect of the case, which, as mentioned above, would probably be the largest obstacle to overcome, but would require you to apply through Montreal. A fiance visa would keep the case in Vancouver, where they might be a little more liberal about this sort of thing, maybe. Making that tactical choice, and making it properly, might require consulting with an immigration lawyer who has dealt with both consulates.

I think this is definitely doable - far more so than if you had already had the surgery, but I agree with the other posts above. This will be an uphill battle, for at least 3-4 years, before you're done. Winnable, but definitely uphill. Good luck.

Just a difference of opinion with the location of marriage - I think it would be far better to marry in a place that does not recognize same-sex marriage. If the OP and her partner got married in Canada, it's much easier for USCIS to claim that it was a same-sex marriage than if it took place in Utah (for example). However, for reasons I stated in a previous response, I really don't think it's much of an option for the OP anyways, unfortunately.

[sciencenerd 56]

I hate to be pessimistic about this, but you are too far into your transition to pull this off without being open. You have a long time on hormones and legally changed your name. You will be required to list your female name (as an "other names used") in the application even if you were to legally change it back and you will almost certainly be asked about that. While you may technically be male using USCIS definitions, you will have a hard time getting them to approve your marriage as valid. I know of one case slightly different than yours (both partners were trans - FTM - and tried to get married after one changed all documentation but before the other) and their case was not approved because they basically said "you can't have it both ways". In other words, you know you're female/they know you're female and that your marriage as an opposite-sex one is built on a technicality. Per USCIS, you will be considered female for purposes of marriage when you get married in a place that recognizes you as female AND you have surgery. So, yes, you do qualify as a male. However, they know as do you that you will not qualify for long. I also know someone who was successful postponing his surgical transition until naturalization, but had been on hormones for quite some time (and as you likely know, transitioning to male can sometimes be more difficult to hide since testosterone's effects are so strong). I won't say that you absolutely will not get approved, but I will say I think it's pretty unlikely. It is a rare circumstance and I gave you the two cases I'm aware of where someone attempted to immigrate as their pre-transition sex. Immigration Equality is a good resource, although out of principle they won't represent you (they only represent people who are applying congruently with their gender identity, which is not an option for you), but they can refer you to lawyers. Jessica Boell is a good lawyer for this, but she's in Portland. She will likely repeat what I have said, but she may have other ideas for success. This is one of those situations where it's obvious how ridiculous it is that same-sex marriages are not recognized - you would have been fine had you done this pre-transition and you definitely would not be fine post-surgery, but you and your partner are the same people/couple. I really wish you the best of luck - there are no easy solutions here and, even if you could technically pull it off, you may just be trading one type of hell (being away from your partner) for another (presenting as a sex you are not). Note that if you do want to try this, I did not mean that you have to live as male, just that you will need to present that way to immigration. Like I said, though, I personally think you are far enough into transition that this is not an option for you. If there is any way for your partner to immigrate to Canada, it would definitely be the best way for you two to be together.

Just to expand on the second case I mentioned - he was on hormones, but did not legally change his name nor any of his documentation until after naturalization. I believe this is an essential difference between his case and your own. In his case, USCIS did not know he was trans where they will know in your case.

[HeatDeath 430]

Just a difference of opinion with the location of marriage - I think it would be far better to marry in a place that does not recognize same-sex marriage. If the OP and her partner got married in Canada, it's much easier for USCIS to claim that it was a same-sex marriage than if it took place in Utah (for example). However, for reasons I stated in a previous response, I really don't think it's much of an option for the OP anyways, unfortunately.

That's a good point on the location of the marriage. +1

As to the rest, you clearly know a lot more about these issues than I do, and I generally accede to your judgement.

One cause for some optimism I see is that the example you gave with two FTM people trying to convince USCIS that they were a hetero couple may be misapplied. Those two people were the same physical gender before their respective operations, and after their respective operations, and were trying to convince USCIS that they were two different physical genders, which was clearly not that case, hence the "having it both ways" objection. The OP and his fiancee are two separate physical genders at the moment, and if they can convince USCIS that they are willing to remain two separate physical genders indefinitely, they should be legally eligible for the visa and AOS. They will virtually certainly get interviews, hard ones, all the way through. The OP presenting as male would definitely make the interviews easier, but shouldn't be legally necessary.

But yeah, they've got a serious uphill fight if they try to do this, and it will be a test case all the way through. Fighting test cases is never fun.

[Leenie 15]

To the OP: I wish I could offer pertinent advice or experience, but regardless, I just had to comment on this situation. My heart definitely goes out to you and your partner because the road to be together will likely be difficult. I hope you find a way to be together or a great lawyer who can lead you down the best path

[Boiler 45,486]

Move to Canada, much easier.

[Udella&Wiz 325]

Just my personal (and Cdn) opinion - you might be better off having her move to Canada - there's a lot more acceptance/ tolerance /fairness in the laws surrounding same sex marriage (which you eventually would be as 2 women). I think it stinks that you would have to 'present' as male just to pass the interview and get into the US - I can only guess that you've had enough stress in your life already working around people's opinions, gender sterotypes and so-called 'values'

I think the lying you might have to do to pass the interviews could be potentially damaging to yourself and possibly your immigration case. Have you considered a work Visa?

[Canadiandggal 49]

Wow this is a hard situation.

I would say what has send above please talk to an immigration lawyer and definitely think about her moving to Canada... Not to say the US is a bad place but I find Canada to be more open to different situations.

I am definitely not sure about the Identification situation as it is hard to really say what will or will not matter.

I mean you have changed your name, changed the sex on most your id and as far as I can tell have been living as a Gal for quite some time (not that there is anything wrong with any of this). Legally you are still male on your birth certificate so you two could be considered a "straight" couple but at the same time you have the identify of a female... Crazy situation.

I wish you luck.

Please let us know what happens.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Yes, a consultation with a good immigration lawyer is definitely in order. I am going to add my voice to those saying, please consider having her immigrate to Canada instead. I know you were both thinking of living in the US, but ultimately what you want is to be together as soon as you can and as easily as you can. You can do this with her moving to Canada. You can get married - which is the easiest route - either as a heterosexual or a same-sex couple because both are eligible - and you really would not have any more challenges to face than any other couple. You would be basically looking at around a year for the process from start to finish and she would be allowed to live with you in Canada on a visitor's visa in the meantime. She wouldn't be able to work until your application had been 'approved in principle' but you would be together.

Trying to immigrate to the US under your circumstances is definitely going to be an uphill battle and I too doubt that your chances of success are high. There are so many roadblocks and other applications that need to be submitted along the way and you could find yourself denied at any one of them. In Canada, once the Permanent Residence status is approved, that's it - you then have to wait 3 years until she can apply for citizenship, but any time up to 2 years physically present in Canada (legally) prior to the PR status can count on a ratio of 2:1 towards citizenship so it could possibly even be faster than that.

I would say that the pragmatic choice for the two of you would be to consider living in Canada. You would find the level of acceptance for your relationship much higher and more supportive than in the US and your relationship would be fully accepted for what it is without any pretense otherwise by the Government.

Good luck to you both. I hope you are able to find something that works.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Kathryn41

[Krikit 1,164]

Post skirting the TOS has been removed.

[caseysarah 2]

Lisa thank you so much for this. Yes i have been thinking about these things too. GRS is covered in Canada but that's kind of a joke because there's only one doctor in the entire country for this and the clinic is 3000 miles from where i live. I have a friend that this doctor messed up horribly so now i have anxiety about going to him which is why i have been procrastinating. That and the fact that, even though the surgery is covered, there's thousands of dollars of travel and post-surgical care costs so it's pretty much just "lip service" that GRS is covered.

My partner is prepared to move to Canada if necessary but it's just that, when i started transition all my family and friends rejected me. i lost everybody who meant anything to me. Since then i have made a few new friends but my girlfriend grew up in the area where she lives, with many life-long friends and family close by. She also has a good job although the company she works for is international and might consider a request to relocate her to Canada. It just seemed to make sense for me to be the one to move though, seeing as how there's nothing left of my life in Canada.

There's also the possibility that my employer would consider opening an office in the USA with me to head that up. Perhaps that's the easier way to go? My boss wasn't considering this until i just recently explained the situation and we haven't explored the idea as of yet. At first glance it seemed that it would be easier to maybe marry (now that i have a clearer understanding of this) and get my green card that way- in which case my employer wouldn't need to be concerned with my immigration at all. I would leave my job if it stood in the way but that's not likely going to be the case. I am skilled at what i do and my boss is willing to go to some effort to accommodate me in all of this. Not to mention that the U.S. market for our products and services is 10 times larger than in Canada.

Now i am trying to figure out how it would work if say, my company wants to open an office in the USA and relocate me from Canada to become the general manager or whatever. Then none of this marriage stuff would matter, is that right? Nobody would care about my gender status or if i have a prehensile tail and opposable toes would they? Can anybody point me to the information i ought to be looking at for this possibility? Which way is likely to be the fastest/easiest? Green card by marriage or by opening a business? (This company has been established and operating successfully in Canada for several years).

How people ever managed to figure out immigration before VisaJourney existed i can't imagine! I appreciate all this help!

[^_^ 5,021]

Post skirting the TOS has been removed.

skirting, i love that word. so apropos.