CALLING THEM ISLAMIC FASCISTS CAN'T HELP

[Mirorgate 0]

Sure.. I can do that.. but I'd rather back them up with facts than feelings... you know?

it's funny that you automatically assumed that these aren't facts, so fine, that's your choice...quilty till innocent right...well i posted the sites...these aren't my opinions, these are the facts, now please, what do you really have to say about the crime rate in america, other than "we ain't perfect"

and if you think it's wrong to have feelings about problems in the world, then i don't want to be right, because i believe that it is our concern, our feelings and passion for doing what is right that fixes problems, not people with a big book of stats.

Dude.. what are you 12? No I do not automatically assume they are facts since there were no links back to the original.. and the numbers are off to begin with. % to decimal is a 2 placement for 10's.... more if you want to really balloon the results. I said I wanted to read and verify what you posted as fact and reply to them as such instead of knee jerk reaction of "You suck! I Win! BECAUSE!" mentality. If you want to take everything I write here out of context and twist it to suit your perception then go ahead.. but replying back as to if that is exactly what I said or meant.. then you.

I also never said that we couldnt feel strongly about certain issues. Obviously we all do, but again... I would like to think through proper responses and back them up with logical reasons as to why I find it to be so with facts. no just hearsay comments from a 5th persons point of view because some religious nut claims it to be word of GOD.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

now please, what do you really have to say about the crime rate in america, other than "we ain't perfect"

Maybe that you and your perceived paradise ain't all that perfect either. What you are doing is comparing apples and oranges. Plain and simple. See, here, we capture a good portion of crimes while in your little paradise, things that flow into our statistics as crimes are no crimes at all. So you go and rape a minor? So you rape your spouse? So what, they say? Here, of course, it's a crime. There, apparently, it isn't. Which might just account for the numbers looking so much better over there. But, hey, don't take my word for it. Take it from the Human Rights Watch:

To the Government of Pakistan

Legislative and Regulatory Reform:

...

The Zina Ordinance discourages rape victims from filing charges by presenting the threat of potential prosecution for adultery. These laws are also seriously flawed because they fail to criminalize marital rape and to establish the crime of statutory rape or sex with or without the consent of a minor. Furthermore, the definition of rape encompassed by the Zina Ordinance is incomplete; the definition of rape should include ####### and oral penetration as well as penetration by foreign objects such as sticks, bottles, or knives.

...

Or how about this one:

Anger at Pakistan rape acquittals

The acquittal of five men convicted in a high-profile gang-rape case in the Pakistani province of Punjab has drawn sharp criticism from rights groups. ...

I think it's time you come off your fcuking high horse, buster!

[RKhalid 0]

Im not 12, and im also not a man, im a lady...a muslim american convert

I never got angry with any of you for your opinions...i simply posted facts and my opinions. for a debate, please don't use harsh words that aren't necessary

My major point that i ever intended to make that none of the things happening in the world has no basis in Islam, i know what Islam teaches, for a fact, and it does not teach rape, it does not teach murder, it does not teach terrorism, it teaches strongly against these acts.

I saw you posted the things about pakistan, here is the difference in my mind, pakistan is a third world country, america is supposed to be civilized, you can not compare their abilities to enforce.(im sure the rate of rape would still be much higher in usa, even if the reports were all made, since all the cases in usa aren't even reported( OPINION) also, Pakistan calls itself an Islamic republic, but it does not follow Islam in it's completness, and it abuses it's power against women's rights, i agree, however, i still remain very confident, that this would not be the case if they followed Islam truthfully. If they were following the laws of Islam about rape, the woman is not harmed, and the man is severely punished, either executed or severly beaten...however, in any case, the woman is never harmed...and it is not so easy that the woman can just say this has happened...of course some form of proof is needed, which is easily done in modern times with DNA testing. another reason women might not report is due to culture, in those countries if a woman is not a virgin she is not desirable to marry, however, this also has no basis in Islam, because our beloved Prophet PBUH married divorced women and widows.

Look, blame who you will, but do not blame Islam, unless you can show me some proof from our Glorius Quran, or from the Prophet PBUH, then you can not say Islam produces muslim terrorists, people produce terrorists, and i dont remember insulting Christianity, saying a bunch of nuts made it, so please, respect my faith and do not say a bunch of nuts made it...if i understand that remark wrong, i apologize, and i also apologize for any remarks i misunderstood...however i can clearly see i've made you all angry...lol, which i did not intend to do...

but seriously, Islam is innocent, just like chrisitanity is innocent, it does not teach people to murder , to rape , to bomb, which americans have bombed americans...it teaches alot of the same morals as Islam...so i do not blame christianity, i blame bad people doing bad things, and want to fix this problem, because the source is not our faiths...it's something else..also, this is fact, but you can choose not to believe it since i have no proof as of now to show you, that the fastest growing faith in america is Islam.

Ok, im done...i appreciate your participation...no hard feelings from me...i am only trying to defend Islam, which i stand by to be perfect in every way.

[RKhalid 0]

Sorry dude, but as long as Islam produces the type of animals that it produces - those beasts are brainwashed in mosques and you know it - I cannot see it as the best religion there is. Is that about perspective? Sure it is. And from my perspective, much of what some muslim clerics (and it's more than a handful) produce is nothing but garbage.

Let's talk about the biggest producer of garbage, shall we?

Hey, America and the West ain't perfect. Neither are your paradises over there in the Middle East, South Asia and Persia. It ain't like rape is a non-issue in Pakistan or anywhere else in the Middle East. Only there, it's always the woman's fault.

When the first American civilians get brainwashed in their churches enough to fly hijacked planes into buildings to kill as many Muslims as they possibly can, when they start chopping heads off of Arab journalists in front of cameras, then we'll have a debate about garbage production. Until then, your guys win this category hands down, my friend.

Other than that, give me friggen break on your Islam is the answer #######! I don't want to hear it.

have you lived in paksitan? if not, then you have no idea how life is there , and where it is worse.

I haven't lived in Pakistan and don't think I ever will. But I've been in places that are much worse off. How do I know? Because there are certain indicators that give that kind of stuff away:

Country: Ethiopia

Population: 74.2 million (UN, 2005)

Capital: Addis Ababa

Area: 1.13 million sq km (437,794 sq miles)

Major languages: Amharic, Oromo, Tigrinya, Somali

Major religions: Christianity, Islam

Life expectancy: 46 years (men), 49 years (women) (UN)

Monetary unit: 1 Birr = 100 cents

Main exports: Coffee, hides, oilseeds, beeswax, sugarcane

GNI per capita: US $160 (World Bank, 2006)

Full country name: Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Population: 161.1 million (UN, 2005)

Capital: Islamabad

Area: 796,095 sq km (307,374 sq miles), excluding Pakistani-administered Kashmir (83,716 sq km/32,323 sq miles)

Major languages: English, Urdu, Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, Balochi

Major religion: Islam

Life expectancy: 63 years (men), 63 years (women) (UN)

Monetary unit: 1 Pakistani Rupee = 100 paisa

Main exports: Textile products, rice, cotton, leather goods

GNI per capita: US $690 (World Bank, 2006)

So, whatever you saw in terms of poverty in Pakistan, imagine people had a quarter of what they had to live on, take about 20 years off of people's life expectancy, multiply the prevalance of HIV/AIDS (and thus the number of orphans) by maybe 5 to 10 or so and then you have a pretty good idea of what Ethiopa looks like. Now that, my friend, is poverty.

And other than a few fanatical Muslims, there ain't no terrorists coming out of Ethiopia. Explain that.

look, my point is that you can not associate terrorism with Islam, and say that ONLY muslims cause terror, im sure that ethiopians commit murders and other crimes as well, but only the ones by muslims are so important to the world these days. There are bad people doing bad things, they are not taking this from Islamic teachings, they are taking this from leaders who brain wash them, and lie to them, or for whatever other reason, but not due to something they learned from Prophet PBUH or from the Quran.

And yes, ethiopia is poorer than pakistan, i can't imagine how the ethiopians live, if they are worse than pakistani life...all i know is that BOTH are living in horrible conditions, regardless which is worse, they are both horrible and unsanitary. and with all the money and resorces available in the world, no one should have to live in such disgusting enviornments.

When the first American civilians get brainwashed in their churches enough to fly hijacked planes into buildings to kill as many Muslims as they possibly can, when they start chopping heads off of Arab journalists in front of cameras, then we'll have a debate about garbage production. Until then, your guys win this category hands down, my friend.

yes americans do not cut off heads on camera, but they do cut off heads, of fellow americans, and they do murder fellow americans every day.

What they do on camera however, is molest children, and even infants, and post this on the internet every day.

Churches have produced priests that molest little boys. BUT christianity does NOT.

[rasmussen 0]

Churches have produced priests that molest little boys. BUT christianity does NOT.

Churches don't produce priests that molest. It is free will of the people and temptation that produces sinful acts.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

look, my point is that you can not associate terrorism with Islam, and say that ONLY muslims cause terror, im sure that ethiopians commit murders and other crimes as well, but only the ones by muslims are so important to the world these days.

Sorry, you drew the parallel between poverty and terrorism. All I did was to tell and show you that that parallel is nonsense. The profiles of terrorists clearly show that it ain't so. Poverty does not generate terrorism. Mindfcukery does.

The difference between what crimes Ethiopians may or may not commit and what does and doesn't get any attention is this: They may commit crimes inside their country and nobody out there will give a hoot. But when they come to, say, London, and try and blow shite up, then that gets people's attention pretty good. A clear 100% of those coming from Ethiopia or Eritrea or Somalia committing such acts overseas profess to be followers of Islam. Now it ain't me telling them that their followers of Islam, it's them claiming so. Their minds were fcuked with in Mosques.

I'll give you that part that committing crimes against humanity does not fit in with proper observance and following of Islam as much as it doesn't with proper following and observance of any other faith. Yet it was you, that claimed the higher ground. Seeing where much (really: most) of today's terrorsim originates are your houses of worship, it's kinda hard to claim the higher ground.

Edited September 4, 2006 by ET-US2004

[rasmussen 0]

...just as in Islam, unfortuately they blame/credit Islam for their actions when they should give the credit to Satan and evil for what they do.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I saw you posted the things about pakistan, here is the difference in my mind, pakistan is a third world country, america is supposed to be civilized, you can not compare their abilities to enforce

It's not about the enforcement, it's about the legal structure. What is considered a crime here (sex with a minor is statuatory rape) is not considered a crime there. A women gets gang raped, the assailants are acquitted. They had them, just had to put those bastards away and didn't even do that. No, no. Don't go around saying they can't enfore #######. They choose not to. Big difference. Either way, seeing that the capture of occurences is nowhere near comparable, the stats aren't either. It's comparing apples and oranges and that is a futile excercise.

[RKhalid 0]

I will have to agree that poverty does not cause all of it, but i will stand by that it must be held partially responsible.

I also agree they are brain washed individuals bombing other countries...but why are they doing it....that is a question worth answering.

I wil always stand by that Islam is perfect in every way...i don't care what muslims are doing, if it is not Islamic teachings, it is to be rejected that it is Isalmic...Islam does not produce terrorists, and neither does any other faith, people produce it...all i am tired of hearing is that Islam is a terrorist faith, Islam produces terrorists, this is not fair to associate it with Islam , and i understand that muslims are claiming it to be Islam, but that doesn't mean that it is...if any other person from any other faith does some horrible crime in the name of their faith it does not mean in any way that the faith promoted this crime, and also means that we as educated people have the responsiblity to find out if in fact the faith teaches this, instead of coming up with lables like Islamic fascists, this is not fair to the truth. end of story, i enjoyed the debate, however i will have to stop here, because i feel that there is really noting more i can say, other than please please learn what Islam teaches, regardless what few bad muslims are doing, do not call this Islam ,regardless they are calling it Islam, simply because this is not the TRUTH. and we all want the truth right?

Churches have produced priests that molest little boys. BUT christianity does NOT.

Churches don't produce priests that molest. It is free will of the people and temptation that produces sinful acts.

Exactly my point

I saw you posted the things about pakistan, here is the difference in my mind, pakistan is a third world country, america is supposed to be civilized, you can not compare their abilities to enforce

It's not about the enforcement, it's about the legal structure. What is considered a crime here (sex with a minor is statuatory rape) is not considered a crime there. A women gets gang raped, the assailants are acquitted. They had them, just had to put those bastards away and didn't even do that.

No, no. Don't go around saying they can't enfore #######. They choose not to. Big difference. Either way, seeing that the capture of occurences is nowhere near comparable, the stats aren't either. It's comparing apples and oranges and that is a futile excercise.

It is a crime, the law is not properly enforced, there is alot of corruption in the pakistani system

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I also agree they are brain washed individuals bombing other countries...but why are they doing it....that is a question worth answering.

Because 99.9% of the time some Imam in some Mosque fcuked their mind into doing it. There's your answer.

I saw you posted the things about pakistan, here is the difference in my mind, pakistan is a third world country, america is supposed to be civilized, you can not compare their abilities to enforce

It's not about the enforcement, it's about the legal structure. What is considered a crime here (sex with a minor is statuatory rape) is not considered a crime there. A women gets gang raped, the assailants are acquitted. They had them, just had to put those bastards away and didn't even do that. No, no. Don't go around saying they can't enfore #######. They choose not to. Big difference. Either way, seeing that the capture of occurences is nowhere near comparable, the stats aren't either. It's comparing apples and oranges and that is a futile excercise.

It is a crime, the law is not properly enforced, there is alot of corruption in the pakistani system.

No it isn't. You did not manage to actually read the Human Rights Watch piece I posted above, did you? So, try again to read:

"The Zina Ordinance discourages rape victims from filing charges by presenting the threat of potential prosecution for adultery. These laws are also seriously flawed because they fail to criminalize marital rape and to establish the crime of statutory rape or sex with or without the consent of a minor."

"discourage rape victims from filing charges for the potential prosecution for adultery (this is really sick!), fail to criminalize marital rape and establish the crime of statuatory rape" - how much clearer can they be? It's not illegal to rape your wife. It's not illegal to engage in sex with a minor. That's a problem on the side of the code not on the side of the enforcement, don't you think? There's nothing to enforce.

[RKhalid 0]

No it isn't. You did not manage to actually read the Human Rights Watch piece I posted above, did you? So, try again to read:

"The Zina Ordinance discourages rape victims from filing charges by presenting the threat of potential prosecution for adultery. These laws are also seriously flawed because they fail to criminalize marital rape and to establish the crime of statutory rape or sex with or without the consent of a minor."

"discourage rape victims from filing charges for the potential prosecution for adultery (this is really sick!), fail to criminalize marital rape and establish the crime of statuatory rape" - how much clearer can they be? It's not illegal to rape your wife. It's not illegal to engage in sex with a minor. That's a problem on the side of the code not on the side of the enforcement, don't you think? There's nothing to enforce.

it says "discourages" it is not against the law to report rape, but like i said, according to the culture, if you report the rape, it is the woman who is at fault, and always going to be considered an adulterer which is also a huge crime, however this is not Islamic law to blame the woman of adultery when she is claiming she has been raped., further more, these things such as rape are definitly illegal in pakistan, but the curroption and lack of enforcement of proper Islamic laws is the reason to blame for this.

The difference between what crimes Ethiopians may or may not commit and what does and doesn't get any attention is this: They may commit crimes inside their country and nobody out there will give a hoot. But when they come to, say, London, and try and blow shite up, then that gets people's attention pretty good

.

This is disturbing to me, it seems to be suggesting that it is less of a crime to murder someone in your own country than it is to murder someone in a foreign country...seems to me that murder should be murder, regardless where or when it was committed.

Ex.

It kind of looks like this....I can murder someone in my house, say my relatives...and no one will really care...but as soon as i go to your house then it's a crime worth looking into?

please clear this up for me...thanks

read the Human Rights Watch piece

finally, are these human rights watch written by westerners or by domestics? it matters, simply because the stats i posted above were written by americans...and not by people from the east....there for little chance of bias and corruption of facts.

Ok, i've spent waaaay too much time on the computer today, i need to study for my college exam! thanks for the debate, if you would still like to go at it, im game, just will have to pick it up tomorrow. I appreciate your participation, because this is a good learning experience.

Leona

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

No it isn't. You did not manage to actually read the Human Rights Watch piece I posted above, did you? So, try again to read:

"The Zina Ordinance discourages rape victims from filing charges by presenting the threat of potential prosecution for adultery. These laws are also seriously flawed because they fail to criminalize marital rape and to establish the crime of statutory rape or sex with or without the consent of a minor."

"discourage rape victims from filing charges for the potential prosecution for adultery (this is really sick!), fail to criminalize marital rape and establish the crime of statuatory rape" - how much clearer can they be? It's not illegal to rape your wife. It's not illegal to engage in sex with a minor. That's a problem on the side of the code not on the side of the enforcement, don't you think? There's nothing to enforce.

it says "discourages" it is not against the law to report rape, but like i said, according to the culture, if you report the rape, it is the woman who is at fault, and always going to be considered an adulterer which is also a huge crime, however this is not Islamic law to blame the woman of adultery when she is claiming she has been raped., further more, these things such as rape are definitly illegal in pakistan, but the curroption and lack of enforcement of proper Islamic laws is the reason to blame for this.

You just keep claiming that which isn't true hoping that repeating it often enough will make it true? It doesn't. How are you going to sit there and defend a law that threatens a women with prosecution for adultery if she has been raped. It's the woman's fault that she's been raped? Adding insult to injury ring a bell? That is horrible. There is no law against marital rape and there is no law that establishes statuatory rape. Those are the facts in Pakistan today.

Having said that, you cannot use whatever statistics to posted to draw a comparison trying to show how much worse things are for those that do not live under islamic laws. It's useless. The standards are different making comparisons meaningless.

[RKhalid 0]

sorry,

i jsut wanted to say one last thing, congratulations on your marriage, on your visa and expecting a baby, after all this site is about supporting each other on our visa journey ...thanks again.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The difference between what crimes Ethiopians may or may not commit and what does and doesn't get any attention is this: They may commit crimes inside their country and nobody out there will give a hoot. But when they come to, say, London, and try and blow shite up, then that gets people's attention pretty good

This is disturbing to me, it seems to be suggesting that it is less of a crime to murder someone in your own country than it is to murder someone in a foreign country...seems to me that murder should be murder, regardless where or when it was committed.

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that people here in the US generally don't care much if a bomb goes off some place in the world. Much less if it is in a place that nobody even knows where it is. If a national of such country sets a bomb off here at home, then that will get everybody's attention. If an American sets off a bomb here at home, that will obviously get everybody's attention, too. I don't know what's so new about that concept.

[RKhalid 0]

....rape is illegal in pakistan, this is true, if there was a man raping a woman with a bunch of witnesses around he would definitly be punished under law...however , it is very corrupted. Please note Islamic laws on rape

Does Islamic law allow men to get away with rape? If a woman brings an accusation of rape against a man and is unable to prove that she was forced, will she be charged with fornication/adultery? Istighfirallah, this is the state of affairs under the law in some Muslim countries.

It is not, however, what Islamic law really says. Rape is a crime of hiraba not of fornication. I have posted previously about hiraba.

Please read Her Honor: An Islamic Critique of the Rape Laws of Pakistan by Asifa Quraishi to learn more about this issue. The article is far too long for me to post it up here, but it is well worth reading, if you wish to see how Islamic scholars have actually treated the issue.

As a side note, in Islamic law, a woman who kills her rapist has committed a lawful act of self-defense and will not be charged with homicide. If she dies while fighting her rapist, she is considered a martyr (source)

~ Posted by Al-Muhajabah, a member of the reality-based community, at 04:32 PM

Hiraba is another hadd crime defined in the Quran. It is variously translated as "forcible taking," "highway robbery," "terrorism," or "waging war against the state." The crime of hiraba is based on the following Quranic verse: The punishment for those who wage war [yuharibuna] against God and His Prophet, and perpetrate disorders in the land is: kill or crucify them, or have a hand on one side and a foot on the other cut off or banish them from the land (Quran 5:33).

Islamic legal scholars have interpreted this crime to be any type of forcible assault upon the people involving some sort of taking of property.74 It differs from ordinary theft in that the Quranic crime of theft (sariqa) is a taking by stealth whereas hiraba is a taking by force (Doi 1984, 250, 254; El-Awa 1982, 7). (Thus, the popular translation as "armed robbery.") Although it is generally assumed to be violent public harassment, many scholars have held that it is not limited to acts committed in public places (Sabiq 1993, 2:447).

(source; author Asifa Quraishi)

Hiraba applies not only to terrorism and banditry but also to rape:

It is in the discussions of the crime of hiraba where the crime of rape appears. A brief review of the traditional descriptions of hiraba reveals that rape is specifically included among its various forms. For example, in Fiqh-us-Sunnah, a modern summary of the primary traditional schools of thought on Islamic law, hiraba is described as: a single person or group of people causing public disruption, killing, forcibly taking property or money, attacking or raping women ("hatk al arad"), killing cattle, or disrupting agriculture (Sabiq 1993, 450). Reports of individual scholars on the subject further confirm the hiraba classification of rape. Al-Dasuqi, for example, a Maliki jurist, held that if a person forced a woman to have sex, their actions would be deemed as committing hiraba (Doi 1984, 253). In addition, the Maliki judge Ibn Arabi, relates a story in which a group was attacked and a woman in their party raped. Responding to the argument that the crime did not constitute hiraba because no money was taken and no weapons used, Ibn Arabi replied indignantly that "hiraba with the private parts" is much worse than a hiraba involving the taking of money, and that anyone would rather be subjected to the latter than the former (Sabiq 1993, 2:450). The famous Spanish Muslim jurist, Ibn Hazm, a follower of the Zahiri school, reportedly had the widest definition of hiraba, defining a hiraba offender as: [O]ne who puts people in fear on the road, whether or not with a weapon, at night or day, in urban areas or in open spaces, in the palace of a caliph or a mosque, with or without accomplices, in the desert or in the village, in a large or small city, with one or more people . . . making people fear that they'll be killed, or have money taken, or be raped ("hatk al arad") . . . whether the attackers are one or many (Sabiq 1993, 2:450)."

http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archi...llah/003015.php

K i really must be going

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was that

people here in the US generally don't care much if a bomb goes off some place in the world. Much less if it is in a place that nobody even knows where it is

.

still disturbing...we should care, we care when there is a bomb in england, or germany or any other developed country...but not when this happens in the poor ones....k im seriously going now , bye